Preparing for Retirement Both On and Off Shift

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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Brent: Welcome. You too. Thanks for joining us today on our Firefighter Support podcast. We're honored to have two legends sitting with us today. And let's start with just a little bit of introductions. Obviously, I know you guys have been around you guys a long time, but, uh, let's start with you, chief, and tell us a little bit about your resume,

walk us through your. Your fire career?

[00:00:21] Brady: Absolutely. Uh, started in the fire service in 1992. Uh, south Ogan Fire Department. Started as a volunteer for two years and became full-time and, uh, loved it. Phenomenal. Spent, uh, bought a bunch of time there with South O Fire Department, but in, uh, 2002 I was very fortunate to take a promotional opportunity and come to work for Logan Fire Department.

At what was then a training officer position that over years evolved into a, uh, uh, an assistant chief position. And then, uh, I left. Logan Fire Department in 2017 became the Fire Chief of Jackson Hole Fire Department. And, uh, I loved Teton County, Wyoming, and Jackson Hole area. I had grown up there as a kid and, uh, it was a chance for me to go back and serve their community in the fire service and then just retired here, uh, this last October in, uh, 2022.

So after 30 years in the fire service.

[00:01:16] Brent: Wow. That's awesome. What, uh, so what happened in 1992 that made you even want to volunteer? Like what did family do

[00:01:23] Brady: this or what kind of Yeah, that's a good question. I, and I really credit my father who was a firefighter in the, uh, in the, uh, Military and he had prompted me early on to say, Hey, you should maybe consider fire service.

You might be good at that. And he knew me well and thought that I had a, had the right fit for that. And fire service had been in my family for four generations. My great-grandfather was a fire chief of Brigham City Fire Department. And so I still have his fire chief badge hanging on my wall, which is kind of nice.

So, so it felt very much like a family heritage, but, uh, But was lucky enough to get a foot in the door early on and then, uh, serve the community I believe wholeheartedly for 30 years, and now just recently decided it was time to make a change and be retired. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:11] Brent: Perfect. We're gonna circle back on that wholeheartedly, because I think that's key to, as people are kind of assessing their career.

And when's the time to go? Cuz obviously 20, uh, first tier one guys and 25 for, you know, is the time you kind of expected or could go. But anyways, we're gonna circle back on that in a second. But Jason, tell us a little bit about you and your career and kind of give us a background on. Mind of Jason Gibbons?

[00:02:35] Jason: Yeah, I grew up in Lewiston, Utah. I grew up on a dairy farm. Kind of what I always figured that I was gonna be. And interesting enough, uh, right around the early two thousands I got asked to be a part of the volunteer fire department in Lewiston. There was a cascade of things that happened in the early two thousands, right?

The made people feel compelled to serve to be a part of something, everything else. But Kind of got affiliated with the Louis and volunteers. And then about five, six years later I got super lucky. Like it wasn't a time when people got hired easily, right? You had to test at a bunch of places.

I, uh, got super lucky and. Got a drop off really quick. Our physical agility test had changed at the time, and I was a thick farm boy. I remember those days. Yeah. I was able to get through that thing and we had some people leave to, to go work at another department down south and an opportunity arose.

So I started in really. The experience of a lifetime. Right. You show up and you've been doing it for a little while and you think I've got some skills, like I've got some certifications, some qualifications. I'm, I've got some skillsets in there. And kind of getting in with the guys and being welcomed into to Logan Fire I found out I had a lot to learn.

Right. And Brady was the training chief at the time. We had a month long academy when I started, we went through all that and Chief Peterson, chief Hansen they took us through all that stuff. And then kind of the rest is history, right? You if you were really interested in being involved, you had a lot of opportunity to be involved in a lot of things.

I involved in hazmat initially, I was involved in, I'm still involved in our wildland program peer support, kind of all those different things as they come around our airport rescue firefighting group. You know, I was involved in that fairly early too, and it's been a really good deal.

And the circle around will be good. The, like you say, the, you always think you're gonna be done at that 25, but it's thinking like, I'm 17 years in now. 17 years. Like, I can't believe it's been 17 years for you. Yeah. And you're looking and saying, well, do I go do something else that maybe I like, maybe I don't, or do I stay with something?

That I love with people that I love. Right.

[00:04:44] Brent: Yeah. And it kind of goes back to, I think, what both of you touched on, which is just, you know, the love of the career and all the different things you get involved in. For both. And this question goes both of you, but just what, how did your love of firefighting evolve throughout your career and the reason why you stayed?

You know, cause I think sometimes people probably have a certain set of expectations going into it and. However, mature, immature, those expectations are just the glory, the fame, you know, the cool. But then the longer you're in the career, it seems like the reasons you stay and the stay a firefighter become much deeper and evolve or even completely changed from when you first started.

How's that process gone for you guys, is the reason you were a firefighter at 30 years versus the reason you were a firefighter at year one?

[00:05:32] Brady: Oh, it's very different. And I was, you know, Kind of on the same line that, uh, Jason was talking about. I feel very fortunate that things happened for me. The way that they did are very lucky.

But, uh, for me getting started was as a volunteer. I was in college at the time, and looking for where am I gonna land? What, you know, what's my right career path? And had the opportunity to volunteer in my community. And once I started volunteering, I was in love, right? I just I was like, oh, this is it.

Now I know what I'm gonna do. And took every class, every opportunity, every training and uh, was very fortunate in those days cuz you know, it's been traditionally very difficult to get your foot in the door in the fire service. And, uh, I was fortunate to find myself with a career position and let you know and let that kind of run its course.

But I would say what kept me in the fire service, you know, early on I was just so proud to be involved in something so big and so important. Later it evolved to where, Uh, I fell in love with the opportunity to serve people and even the frequent flyer patients and some of those things. It was a great opportunity to just really serve someone.

But then early in my career when I, once I became a training chief, and then that evolved to an EMS chief and operations, ch assistant chief, you know, as the career path changed, much of my time was spent serving, not. Patients, not customers, not individual citizens. Much of my time was spent serving other firefighters and that really became, I think for me, the love of the career, making sure that firefighters had the tools they need, the budget, they need the equipment, they need the training, they need to be successful so that they touch the patient, they touch the customer.

I provide for them, excuse me, I provide for them what they need. And that was, I think, what kept me for a long time. Yeah.

[00:07:17] Brent: I think that's awesome. Well said. You know, it's that shift from patient as firefighter and I don't know, maybe sometimes you want to go back to the patient. Firefighters can be hard to manage.

Yeah, absolutely.

[00:07:29] Brady: Patient's way easier to make happy for sure. But, uh, but you know, the success of seeing, uh, you know, recognizing we need a new airway adjunct, I'm gonna make sure that we have the policy, the support to get it, and then hearing the feedback from firefighters, Hey, we got to use that new airway adjunct now, and it was successful.

Uh, you know, we needed a new class, a new training. Now I get to see them go, put the budget together, the training, all of those things. Now they get to go use those skills. That became, for me, a very important part of my career was making sure that firefighters had the tools, the training, the equipment, the budget, the funding, everything that was needed to make them successful.

Yeah. And

[00:08:05] Brent: I think the impact is you know, while, you know, the impact we have on patients is very large on, on some calls I don't know how often they remember us specifically, or just the fire department as a whole. Right. But I think as a fire chief, people have pretty specific memories with that person that have impacted them.

I, cuz I still remember calls that we were on at the same time and, you know, it is probably a dime a dozen for you, but like, for me, being brand new and just, you know, the words that you said to me on those calls, like, I still remember, you know, because the impact that your leaders have on you as a firefighter is.

Is huge and kind of sear into your memory a little bit. And so, I think that's awesome.

[00:08:46] Brady: And yeah, and I have those experiences with my early fire chiefs, you know, and that, that really influenced me. I look at, uh, chief Rod Mausi, or Chief Dave Powers those early fire chiefs when I was a company officer that molded me in a certain direction.

And I, I love those experiences and I'm glad that I had the opportunity to pass some of those on as well.

[00:09:04] Brent: Yeah, well you

[00:09:05] Jason: certainly have. They were super effective. Well, good. And I can. I've I trained with you for a number of years, right? We, right, we did all kinds of different things from swift water to fire ground to airport, to virtually kind of the gamut of everything that we went through.

You know, you want to have your guys prepared. And I can only speak as a captain, but you want to have you guys prepared. So when the decision has to be made, it's made right? It's already made in their head, whether it's something they've seen before, whether it's something that they've gone through before, anything else, and you never know what that situation's gonna be.

If you're gonna have to take a risk on a fire or if you're gonna have to, like your policy was always on swift water. The very quickest, safest way we're gonna have to grab somebody is somebody, go grab 'em. Right, right,

[00:09:52] Brady: right. There's not a lot of time for other options. No.

[00:09:54] Jason: So if you see somebody, the, we had to make the decision of whether or not we were able to do it right.

We were going after something like that. There was multiple things like that over the course of time. The, you know, and I worked with you for a lot of years, right. We, a lot of big fires, a lot of a save in the middle of that, there was a ton of stuff that kind of went through with the whole entire gamut of stuff and.

You know, as a firefighter for me, when I started to that original question, same. It's exciting, right? They're, everything that you're doing is something new all the time. More and more. More. And I had a captain when I started that told me, you're never gonna cut a hole in a roof. You know, the chances are low.

We don't run enough fires. You're probably not ever gonna do multiple things. They kind of cascaded along through there, and I was super lucky in my career. I don't know if the sun was just shining on me that day or what, but I did pretty much all those things that he told me that I wasn't gonna do.

And on the day that I did the last one I had sent him a text and I was like, Hey, you were wrong. I've been doing a lot of this. Yeah. And it wasn't for malice or anything like that, it was just because, you know, initially you were told that it's gonna be just ambulance calls or it's gonna be just this or that, or any of these other things, but.

I've, I'm unique in the fact I've had opportunity to fight fire right outside of wires Mexico, down in New Mexico. I've been about 30 miles off the border in Canada. I've camped on the beach in Santa Barbara, biting fire. I've been all over the entire western half of the United States and seen a lot, met a ton of people.

The things that changed for me over the course of time on the reasons why I stay is Part of it's the comradery, part of it's the people that you get to know as you're kind of going along and the opportunity to still serve. Right? There's still a lot of pride and ownership in doing exactly what we do all the time.

But the people that you're with become your family over, over the course of time. We spend a third of our life with those guys and. It's a huge support group. I've got a extremely good family. They're extremely supportive. And if I could, I'd spend every minute with them. Right? But being able to go to work and have this a similar situation, not everybody has that.

So, yeah it's gonna be hard to leave.

[00:12:07] Brent: I think one of the toughest things about the careers is the longer you're in it, the more experiences you have that validate why you're there. You know, when you have that big call where you get to do that thing, that just fulfills every bit of training that you've trained for that moment.

And then it happens. It's like, how am I supposed to stop doing this? Right. And that kind of takes us to the next thing. And Brady having recently had to make that decision how do you know? When it's

[00:12:32] Brady: time. Well, that's a really good question. How do you know when it's time? And I think it's probably uniquely different for different people with different experiences.

But, uh, my experience was a couple of things that led me to know that it was probably the right time to retire. And one was that in order to take the fire chief job, I had to move several hours away from my family. Uh, my wife came with me, but all my kids were staying in Cash Valley. And so, We weren't that far, three hours away, so I still saw them a lot, but it was hard to be that far away.

And I have grandkids now and, you know, and so there was a draw for me to come back and be close to home. That was probably probably the number one thing is the need to be back close to my, closer to my family. But two, I also felt that I could feel at the running, at the fire chief pace and carrying the weight of that responsibility.

I definitely felt it. And And I'd worked for a number of really good fire chiefs, you know, some of the fire chiefs I worked for in my career, and some even before that. I also knew that there's a sunset on your effectiveness, right? On how long you can be there and be effective. And I felt like I was having a really good experience and I was having a, an incredibly great time with my crew, with my team, my, my fire department.

But I didn't wanna stay too long either. I didn't want to stay past my years of effectiveness. And so those things put together and then thirdly, I would say I felt. I could feel me slowing down, right? I could feel that having the energy to push every day, all day waning, just a little. And, you know, maybe just a good vacation would've been a good opportunity to reset.

But with the other factors, uh, wanting to be back closer to my family than it seemed like the right time. And I also, you know, I also, for me personally, Wanted to retire while I still had my health, while I was still physically, mentally healthy and able to enjoy the retirement, and that was a priority.

Recognizing that all of those things I wanted, it was still really hard to go right. I still miss it. It still drives me crazy to hear the sirens and not know where they're going. Right. And not have a pager, not have a radio, and not where they're going. Not feel like I'm. I'm supposed to be there.

That's a little bit of an adjustment, but, uh, at the same time, uh, it's, I'm delighted to be in a place where I'm healthy and still able to pursue all of my goals and dreams and aspirations and hobbies and interests while I'm still healthy and able to be retired.

[00:14:53] Brent: So, I want to press you a little bit on, you know, when you said you started to feel yourself slowing down and what does that look like, you know?

Sure. Like what are the indicators to you? That other guys might start recognizing, you know, it's like, okay, that's a sign that I'm slowing

[00:15:08] Brady: down. Yeah, absolutely. I would, I, I think, uh, at the fire chief level, you know, wanting to write another budget, right? Wanting to develop another program, be involved in those things.

And I was very lucky to have an incredible team, uh, surrounded me that, uh, was, that was performing at a very high level, uh, incredible battalion chiefs and captains company officers. But, uh, but there was definitely times that it was like, wow, you know, I think when you're in the fire service, it's not the kind of career path whether you're a career volunteer or a paid, uh, firefighter.

It really is so important. It truly is life and death. You really have to give yourself to it, right? You've really gotta give. Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't have good work-life balance and prioritize family and, you know, spouses and kids and whatever else it, you know, your support network.

Network. They need to be a priority. But while you're doing that, you've really got to be focused on the fire service. You can't just be one foot in. And when you feel the time that, that you're not striving to take the next class, you're not striving to be at the next event, you know, the next certification, the next goal.

Then it's probably time to let the person who is still striving to be at the next class, the next certification, the next goal, the next. Because you know, even after 30 years in the fire service, I've told people a lot of times I feel like I barely scratched the surface on what I needed to know, what I needed to learn.

I by no means have this career, uh, mastered. Right. Uh, there's just no way you can whether you specialize in, you know, like we've, like Jason and I have talked about before and have done whether you specialize in airport, uh, firefighting or swift water or, you know, technical rescue fields or heavy rescue fields or paramedicine or, you know, peer support or all the other many things that we need to, that we need to specialize in.

None of us are ever gonna master this career. But at the moment, you stop striving to master it, and it's like, you know what? I just don't have the energy to go to the next National Fire Academy. I don't have the energy to go to the next, uh, you know, for me the chief officer level meetings, you know, statewide chiefs meetings and lobbying for, you know, new statewide laws and support.

When you feel that the drive start to wane just a little, then it's time to let the next person. Who still has the drive, uh, pass the torch and let them carry it. Yeah,

[00:17:34] Brent: I think that's great. And it seems like it's still driven by selflessness. That same selflessness we use on calls is maybe that same thing you find to overcome The challenges that come with stepping away, right.

Is that it's not about me and what I want, but there's maybe the next person is better fit for that job at this time. Right. What were some of the. Things you had to overcome, you know, as far as the hesitations with like, oh, like, cuz you know, I think guys think about it and it always seems like another day's problem, right?

But then all of a sudden that's here. And even though you have every reason to be done and, you know, everything's sorted out, maybe financially and logistically and all the, like I said, all the reasons are there, but it's still so hard. How did you overcome

[00:18:20] Brady: that part? I would say Uh, that's a pretty good question.

I I think for me personally I kind of knew that I would be going around the 30 year mark, right? I kind of, that was, that, that was a long term that, you know, that decision was made a long time before it wasn't. I just woke up and said, oh, you know, forest, I think I'm tired. I think I'll go home now.

You know? Uh, it wasn't like that. It was kind of, I knew that I wanted to work to a certain point. Roughly around 30 years and and then I would likely be considering retirement at that time. So it was a, it was a decision that was made, not a decision, but a goal that, that was made way before that I didn't.

Would you say that's

[00:19:00] Brent: a helpful part for guys to start thinking about now, whether you're five years away or 15 years away, is kind of have a number in mind

[00:19:07] Brady: that, well, I think for me it was a good decision to know that. I would likely get to a, you know, get to a ride around that 30 year mark.

Now I would also say this, I would say that over the course of, for me, a pretty long career, I look back at some of my very dear friends that I've worked with, you know, and you know how that bond is in the fire service. Even if you're not the kind of people that are gonna go fishing together and hang out together.

There's a love within the fire service, uh, you know, a brother and sisterhood that is, is important. But I look at my peers. And I would say, and I told my team in Jackson Hole, this all the time, less than half of my peers that retired before me, over a very long period of time, less than half of them set a date and set a goal and said, that's when I'm going to retire far more frequently, or at least more than half of the time.

I suspect I don't have data. I wasn't counting, I'm just looking back over my, you know, over my career. They left because of an injury. They left because of a personal crisis. Maybe they left because of discipline. Maybe they left because of, you know, some other reason than I want to get to 20, or I want to get to 25, or I want to get to 30, or I want to get my house paid off, or I want to, you know, some other goal.

But sometimes I would say more than half of my peers as I look back left because someone else told them it was time to retire. Not them deciding for themselves. And as I had seen that happen over a long time, I didn't want that to be me. Right. I wanted to be me. The one deciding it was time to go, not my boss telling me it was time to go, or my doctor telling me that, Hey, you're you've gotta, you've gotta be done.

You've gotta retire. You can't do this job anymore for, you know, whatever, you know, health or fitness related reason. And so that was one of the things I was really proud of, was being able to say, I did it. I left when, you know, I left on top. And that's probably one of the pieces of advice that I would want to pass on is give yourself to it entirely and really go so that you, and then set your own goal and say, okay, now I'm gonna retire while I'm on top.

Not because my doctor makes me, not because my family tells me I have to go, or my fire service family tells me I have to go, or I just get so sour. And so mad about the politics of the fire service that I can't take it anymore. But just being able to say I pushed as hard as I can for as long as I could, and then I left in a really good place.

Yeah.

[00:21:30] Brent: That's great. On those, uh, events that other people that you saw around you that you know is kind of chosen for them, how many of those were like an overnight. Right thing versus, you know, a career of eating a certain way or whatever led to this injury that could have been prevented. But it started 15 years ago or Right.

You know, it, or were some of those, like literally they did have like one bad accident and you know, it was just kind of a freak accident or most of 'em. Something that started, you know, 10 years

[00:22:03] Brady: previous. Right. And, you know, and for some, as I look at, you know, I worked with a lot of people over the decades and for some it was unavoidable.

It was a really significant fall. It was a significant injury. It was a, something that's like, well, you're not gonna recover from that. But for many it was a long period of life choices, whether that was health related or attitude related, that. Led someone to say, I don't love the job anymore because, you know, it's hard.

It's not an easy career. It's a hard career path. Yeah. But now I'm angry at my peers or I'm angry, or I'm sour or whatever. For whatever reason, those things generally happen slow. But then the retirement decisions, oftentimes that's it. I've had five bad days in a row and I'm done,

[00:22:47] Brent: you know?

Yeah. It seems like one of the common things you hear from. Guys that have hit the 20 any day could be my, you know, in the left to remind everybody. Right. One more thing. Right. You know, and sometimes it's said lightheartedly, but Yeah. Sometimes, you know, it's like, oh man, I bet you that guy really is like three bad shifts away from being done, you know?

What have you seen Jason from, I mean, I'm sure you guys have interacted with a lot of the same people and seen the same Yeah,

[00:23:11] Jason: a lot of the same. That's kind of. Some of that is what our peer team was born out of. Right, right, right. It was established out of some of those circumstances, and that's when we started to kind of push towards how do we keep our people healthy?

Right. Whether it's physically healthy or mentally healthier or any of those other things. And it's to, to the people's credit that we're the first in we'll call 'em the first in with the peer team. Kinda getting all that stuff up and going. It's different now. It's significantly different now than when I started in the fire service.

Right. The, our ability to take care of our people is, has changed quite a bit, whether it's kind of what we're doing with fitness or nutrition or mental health or any of those other things. Like for me I don't know how, like, I can't recollect if I would've been in like a really bad mental state at one point or another, but, Some of those first trainings that came through when Rich Landlord came.

Right. He changed my life, right. He changed my outlook on how I process things, how I approach myself in that type of manner. So, you know, I, part of the reason I wanted to be involved with the retirees is that Right. It's heartbreaking at times. It's extremely, uh, uh, an accomplishment.

It's a joyous occasion at other times. Uh, the goal would be to have everybody be able to retire on top, be able to look back and not have any animosity, right? Not have any, not go out that way, whether it's attitude based or physical based, or accident based, or any of those other things, right?

That's why we trained hard. That's why we do those, all those other things. But early on it was the mental health that was overlooked and a lot of that. Training. Right. We train train. And we had once a year we would do the wellbeing of the emt. Right, right. You refresh

[00:24:56] Brady: on the wellbeing of the EMT chapter, which is a good concept, but falls far short

[00:25:00] Jason: of Yeah, yeah.

From where we were at. So that was a huge reason why I wanted to be involved with the retirees. Those are the guys who, like I say, when I showed up on the front doorstep an hour late on my first day, I don't remember

[00:25:13] Brady: that. Yeah, I probably

[00:25:15] Jason: should remember that. Yeah. When I showed up on the doorstep at Station 70, that first day I thought that I was prepared and it didn't take me long to figure out that I wasn't.

I had a lot to learn. The guys that taught me that. Then it was broad. There was this huge group of people that took me in and taught me how to be a firefighter, taught me how to operate on EMS calls and different scenes and all those other things. And I learned a ton of valuable stuff. And those guys became my heroes over the course of time.

And when you, whether it's your hero or whether it's just somebody you're super close with, like you said, you talked about relationships that you build inside the fire service over the course of time when you see struggle. In those areas, whether it's accidental or any of those other things, it breaks your heart over the course of time.

And that's the goal, right? That's what we want to try and get away from. That's why this is important to everybody, right? So having a plan that, that, I think that's a great idea, right? So I'm gonna try and get to here and like for me personally, I always. Uh, mine changed so many times over the course of years, right?

So being involved in the wildland, there is multiple things I can go and do. Like I, I can go and work for state agencies. I can go and work for other departments. I can go to other states and build that second retirement. There's a ton of those things I can do, but the closer I get to that 20 year mark the more I think, man, I'm so happy here, right?

The, and I can stick around for another 10 years after that and pull 70% At the end of that, I'll be 60. I don't know what the right decision is to this day. Right, right. Like, I'm still wondering inside of there. And, you know, it's the greatest job in the world. And if you're happy where you're at, doing what you're doing, I'd be super hard for me to leave right now.

But it, the time will come right. As it has for everybody else. Like I used to scheme I worked for the same captain for 10 years. Right. He was a who? Who's that? Bob Goodwin. Oh,

[00:27:03] Brady: yeah. Captain Goodwin. Excellent.

[00:27:04] Jason: Excellent. I loved working for Bob. We had so much fun. There was all these things and I literally spent years just scheming of ways to try and get those guys to extend their retirement out to one when I hit my 20.

Right. Because at the time it was the greatest time ever. Right, right. When I came to work and man, it was awesome. I didn't want to end. And then another chapter starts, and they're all awesome, right? They're all something new, something different. And

[00:27:30] Brent: I'm trying to convince your brother to do the same thing.

He's convinced he's gonna retire in the next like five to seven years. I'm like, no, just go with the 23 with me. Keep 23 more.

[00:27:38] Brady: You'll be fine. Yeah. Well, I do feel like that's an important step for, you know, each individual. We all have different factors that drive that, that decision. And I don't think it has to be static.

It doesn't have to be, well, I'm gonna work to 20 and I'm done. You can reevaluate and reassess that situation. For me, it was pretty clear it was getting close to the time to go and I and I wanted to leave my organization in a really healthy place as best as I could. And I think we'd accomplished some really good things.

But then I did feel good about the decision in the end. Yeah. And you know, and it does, Jason and I were talking about this before we started. It gets harder to recover. It gets harder to. Miss a whole night's sleep and then come to work the next day, right? Yeah. It gets harder to do your pack test every year and be okay the next day.

And, you know, the it is a little bit, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a young person's job, but it is a very physical job. So, uh, if you're gonna do it right, you need to be physically healthy and mentally healthy and, you know, it's not all of us are gonna be as, as capable of doing it later in life. And I think

[00:28:40] Brent: you've both touched on the goal setting, which I think is perfect.

Because just having that plan as mentioned is just something to help you reverse engineer back. Like, if I'm gonna retire when I'm healthy and happy, okay, I'm 15 years away from that goal. That means today I better eat this way and make sure when I'm on shift I'm exercising and taking advantage of that time.

Right. But then I think the importance of reevaluation. Because if you make that decision as, you know, a 25 year old, you should probably reevaluate that decision as a 30 year old and a 35 year old. You know, because what do you know when you're 25? You know? But it's, to set it and then to re constantly reevaluate, I think is a super healthy mindset.

Something that's impressed me about both of, as you guys have been talking, as both of your memories and as you've talked, has been laced with gratitude. And it just seems to me that's a pretty significant factor to your happiness in the career. That if you can't find reasons to be grateful for this job, you're probably on the trail of getting burned out more than you are of ending in a happy, healthy, on top kinda way.

Maybe you can dig in a little bit on that more is how has gratitude played a role throughout your careers and kind of how have you seen that impact you and maybe even those around Jim, I'm sure you both. Could need more than two. Hands count. The number of guys you've seen get burned out. But what, how, maybe would've gratitude changed that for them?

Or, and again, how has it impacted you?

[00:30:04] Brady: I'll let you start on that one, Jason.

[00:30:05] Jason: For me it's where you find it, right? So if you're looking for those reasons, right? If you're looking around, and it can be something small. I was standing in line at a restaurant one day with the guys we.

We're late getting dinner, we decided we had to go get something fast for food that night. We'd had a busy day. There's all these other things going on. We knew we were gonna have a chance to relax, right? We just wanted to hurry and get something fast and go relax. And we walked in and we were watching the people and the restaurant.

And it's one of the, is kind of a buffet style where they can dish all your stuff up for you and everything else. And. The people that were working in there were just shaking pots and pans and they were throwing some food in trays and just constantly moving for that whole entire eight hours. And I looked at the guy that I was in there with, he was my engineer at the time, and I says, we got it pretty good.

It could be much more difficult, right? For whether you were doing that for eight or 12 hours. It's really kind of where you find it. Right. So, You know, when you have the opportunity to sit down and relax you're getting paid to be ready, right? In those moments, there's some days, sometimes you're getting paid to, to do the work that you're called to.

There's some days you're getting paid to train. There's some days you're getting paid to do all these different things, but there's some days when I'm getting paid to go hike on a mountain, right? There's some days when I get done with that hike. I sit there and I just watch for a while. And they're paying me to do it type of a thing.

Gratitude for me is where you find it. It's everywhere. And whether it's people who thank you for the job that you do, whether it's the sense of achievement of watching guys that you've trained or any of those other things, the gratitude is where you find it it's really everywhere.

Right. I. Whether you call it gratitude or maybe it's better call it satisfaction, right? The satisfaction for me is, you know, getting to do things that most people never, ever will have the opportunity to do, and getting paid to do those things right? There's very few people that get paid to, to hang out with their buddies for.

The third of their life.

[00:32:05] Brent: We were talking about that. The other day is just with the new movie, well, it's your top gun. You know how hard Tom Cruise fought to be able to fly the actual fighter jet. And here you have this guy who's worth half a billion dollars every, you know, bit of clout and power.

And the answer is no. You know, like there's not enough money in this world that allows you to do certain jobs. And in kind of that same light, we were like, it's pretty cool that like, We get to drive lights and sirens on the wrong side of the road. And it doesn't matter how much money or what position you hold, you'll never be able to do that unless you're willing to do the job.

And it's just kind of an, a neat

[00:32:43] Brady: thing. But, well, I would say for me the gratitude really came from the opportunity to serve right? And as it didn't feel that way every day. You know, sometimes when you're. Putting some visqueen on your lip to walk into a, uh, a really bad GI bleed call. It's like, oh man, why did I pick this job?

You know? But that customer, that person, that patient really needed you, really desperately needed you and there's a lot of satisfaction that says, I ha I can do that. I'm gonna be the one that is gonna go in and take care of that patient in their. Under horrific circumstances. And then I've, you know, come back, we've all, you know, had that experience come back from really terrible calls.

And second guess, why did I have to expose myself to this horrific experience? Why does this, you know, why did I choose this career path? I had a good friend that we came back from a really bad call, which you would both recognize if I talked about it. And, uh, and he said, this is the best job I'll ever hate.

And his, and that day, in that moment, he was not liking the job. Right. But then you take the big step back and uh, and it's the best job. But I agree with Jason, it's the best job because even when we do experience bad things, it's because we're really helping someone else, right? It's rarely us having the bad experience.

We're trying to help someone else with their really bad experience. We absorbed some of that through. You know, uh, through critical incident of stress and some of those things, and I'm so grateful that there's such a good program in place now to help so that guys like me can get to the end of a good, successful career.

And I can tell you there was some times that without that peer support, without good counselors, without really good friends putting their arm around me saying, Hey, I don't think you're okay. Uh, maybe you should talk to somebody. Without all of those things, I wouldn't be sitting here saying, I chose my day and I achieved retirement, and I got there while I was on top right.

I only got there because I had good peers, good peer support, good training programs that helped me with both the physical fitness aspect, but also the mental fitness, the mental health aspect to help me achieve retirement in a really good place. That's awesome. Yeah, and I, and that's profound for me, right?

I recognize that there was a few forks in the road where I was in a place that could have gone really poorly, but good peers put their arm around me and said, Hey, Brady, I think you're maybe not good making the best life decisions. Or, Hey, Brady, I think maybe you should talk to somebody and reach out, and there's a good counselor that I think you should talk to.

And those things helped rescue me to get me back on the right path to where I can feel like I retired. Really at the top of my game. Yeah.

[00:35:38] Brent: I think it's important to recognize with that it's hard to be the one being helped. It is way harder in this career. Yeah. Especially where you're so used to being the helper and the one controlling and bringing control to chaos and then all of a sudden it's you.

And I think that's why we go silent for so long. And so I think it's credit that. You were able to be there and accept the help and recover and get on top.

[00:36:02] Brady: I think that's, that was profound for me. Then I was able to go back and get promoted and get a fire chief job and do all those things.

I, that, that was out of the question for me. If I didn't have other friends, peers and a good peer support program to put their arm around me and say, Hey, let's get you back on track after a series of bad events. Right. Yeah.

[00:36:21] Brent: And it seems like that's how it comes too, right? It seems like it comes in waves.

You know, it's not just one bad call a year. It seems like it's. Maybe five or six, but they all happen within four weeks. Right. And it's just like, holy cow. I'd like to end on one, one question. I mean, we could go on for hours. I'm just a sponge right now absorbing everything you guys are saying, but we spent a lot of time talking about the career and ways to invest in your career, both fitness and mental, and to end on your career on a good note.

But I'd like to talk for a minute on investing in those that you're gonna be retiring with. Right, because, and like you said, chief to give yourself to the career, but then if you get to the end and your family's in shreds, that's not a great way to retire either. And one of those impact statements that you told me a long time ago was that as far as the family balances, your family's more important.

But there's times where your job is more urgent. And understanding that and communicating that to your family is an ongoing. Conversation, but uh, maybe you could lead us off a little bit on, on things we can be doing now to invest in our family and those relationships when it comes time to retire, we can enjoy it with them and it not feel like you're starting your marriage all the way over again or.

You have to rebuild this relationship with your kids cuz you're absent for 25 plus years, you know?

[00:37:42] Brady: Yeah I believe that wholeheartedly. I and I you've heard me use that line before, uh, Brandon, I've used it with other peers as well, with other, uh, individuals I've worked with. Your support network.

Well, whatever that is. It's different for our, for a lot of us. Right. But whether it's a spouse or, you know, for me it's a spouse for others that, that family network looks different, but, My, my family, my, my wife and my kids, they have to know that they're the most important thing and that has to be shown to them through time, you know, time given, and that's hard, giving them the time that they deserve.

But there were times, and that phrase had come to me years ago when I was coming back after, you know, jumping up and leaving a birthday dinner or something. I had jumped up and left some critical family event. And, uh, and the comment was made, I think your job is more important to you than we are. And I said, no, it's not more important.

It, but it sometimes is more urgent. Right? I can come back and sing birthday again, but I. That customer whose house is on fire or bad wreck, or, I don't remember what the call was anymore. It doesn't even matter. They can't wait. They've gotta have, they've gotta get the service they need right then. But that can't just be lip service.

You've gotta really mean it. And you've gotta really commit. And I think for in the fire service, because we spend so much time at work, we have to be more cognizant, we have to be more aware that we've left our family for a lot more hours than a police officer does. Right. We spend a lot more hours at work, so we have to go out of our way if we can, to the greatest degree that we can to make up for it.

On the other side with time commitment to family,

[00:39:25] Brent: did you find there was some specific routines or things you would do with your family to remind them that they were the most important or little tips and tricks to, as far as like, I don't know, things you did off shift, like. I don't know, speaking to the guy that just has a four month old kid, you know, what what do I need to do to help them recognize that they are the most important, even though I'm gone a

[00:39:47] Brady: lot?

That's a good question. One of the things for me was, Making the decision to retire so that I can get back closer to you, to my kids. That was important. I would love to ask my, now that you've asked, I want to ask my kids that question. How does it feel for you? Did it feel like I spent too much time at work?

Or did it feel like I was there for you whenever you needed me? I'm gonna have to go ask them that. I think that they would say that they, that there's a sincerity in my relationship with my family that they know that they are the most important thing. You know, whether that meant when I was working out of town, driving three hours, my son, you know, I showed up at a lacrosse game.

I drove four hours to get to his lacrosse game that Saturday morning because I needed him to know that he was the most important thing to me, uh, that, you know, that the kids came first. So that's the kind of offset balance that I think. We need to prioritize, not just take for granted that the family will always be there.

And that's probably a whole nother Yeah, that's the secor. Yeah, that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother class. But, uh, I don't know. Jason, your experience.

[00:40:53] Jason: Mine I have to echo that, right? So there's the timeframe in there, and I think as firefighters, Early on, I had conversations with guys who'd been in the service for a while.

I started when my kids were young, right? My kids were super, super young. One of 'em wasn't even born at the time. Over the course of time, you talked to the guys, and I remember sitting up around in the day room or whatever at night and having guys tell me I feel like I've missed it, right? Then this fear starts to build.

So for me, there was always this fear that was building that I'm doing the same thing. What am I missing right now? Right. There's all these things that are kind of piling up inside of there. There's all this time, cuz outta every three years you spend an entire year inside of that fire station, right?

We're gone a third of the time. And that's just a given. You add on top of that multiple jobs, uh, a lot of other things that are going on and you're trying to make ends meet or whatever goals that you have that you've set inside of there for yourself. I was, I don't remember how far I was in, but, and this is kind of corny, like the movie Yes.

Man, Jim Carey. He has to say yes to everything, right? I liken that to how I want to operate with my kids. And it's, I'm not great at it. I don't I'm, I don't do it all the time, but, My kids are older now. Right. So when I get the opportunity to hang out with them, it's always a yes. It's always a yes.

It's always a yes. When they were young, I wish that I would've done more of the yes. Right. I wish that I had been able to prioritize some things over and it wasn't just the fire service, it was, you know, duck hunting or fishing or any of these other things that, you know, I still have the opportunity to do.

But I think guys have a lot of stress over. The lost time is the time that they might not give back. And for me it was always a fear. Right? And just trying to be available all the time. For me, that when you talk about your support group, your family is for most people the number one thing, right?

It's the it's what gives you balance. The time that the fire department can be chaos. You get home, you want stability, right? You're hoping for love, you're hoping for, You know, connection and all those other things. And for me it is just trying to be available and always just being the yes man and saying, yeah, whatever you want to do.

Like I'm super tired, but if you want to go to a movie at the late movie at 10 o'clock tonight Yeah. I'll go sleep through it with you.

[00:43:12] Brent: Yeah. Type of a thing. Well, and I've been amazed, and this is more on my wife cause my kids are still pretty young, but. How much of a difference it makes. Even if my body is just at home, even if I am, we had a terrible night getting, I got off shift, but if I'm just at home sleeping, just the fact that I'm there, it just seems like that alone is helpful.

So yeah, just being there and being available. I was very curious on your perspective with having older kids because I feel like for me right now, it's pretty easy. My kids think I'm cool. They think the. The job is super cool. They come to the fire station and I am gonna be heartbroken the day that no longer is the case.

You know, it's like they're sick of the fire trucks and you know, they're, my dad is, anyway, it's time to happen.

[00:43:54] Brady: I don't think it does. My kids were very proud even to the last day of my retirement. My kids were very proud of the career choice of their dad, and they, you know, they made it known that they were proud of me for what I did.

And yeah. Well, that's very much so comfortable. Yeah. Very

[00:44:09] Jason: much so. For me it's just the, I always want them to know whether it's my wife or my kids or anything else that they are what the most important thing is. Right. So all these other things if I had to walk away, I would, right.

If I had to walk away from the fire service for them, I would do it. That's. That's the factor that falls inside of there. And they've been extremely understanding over the last 17 years, especially in the summertime, right? Everybody gets outta school and once July hits I'm typically absent for larger periods of time.

And, you know, trying to make sure that they know, and I feel like they really do know, but trying to make sure that I know that they know and convince myself that. That I'm doing good enough is tough.

[00:44:55] Brady: Well, and when you get to my shoes, when you are looking back over a 30 year career and then and have retired, it's nice to know that you, you made the effort.

And there's no doubt, you know, being in the fire service is gonna take a toll on the family. Uh, but if you can stay mentally healthy so you're not coming home and kicking the dog and yelling at the kids and, you know, uh, and have those goals and get to that retirement in a good place, I think it helps a lot.

[00:45:19] Brent: Yeah. Well, and I think that's a perfect place to, to wrap up. Cause it circles right back to what you said that we're all gonna have those moments. You're gonna have the shift where you come home and you didn't handle it well at all. Right. Right. But having that peer support group, being willing to change, being willing to go talk to somebody, you know, and I can't emphasize enough just from the short time I've even been on the peer team, but just how much of an impact.

Seeing guys and myself meeting with a clinician, how much that really helps. I can offload anything I want to this person that I barely know and I'm never gonna see, and that way I don't have to do it to my family, you know? Right. I can take care of all that and that way I can come home a lot more consistently in a pleasant mood or not as distant or whatever.

And so I'd hope that, uh, anybody listening knows that they can reach out to the peer support at any time. You know, if you're feeling that way. You're getting home burned out. You're on shift, you're burned out. Uh, but you don't have to stay that way. It doesn't matter how long you've been here, there's ways to bounce back, recover, make that shift and end on top.

And so we'd hope anybody listening will reach out and take those next steps. But thanks guys for being here today and taking the time. I know you're both super busy and. And even as a retiree, you're super busy,

[00:46:33] Brady: so, well, I didn't retire. Retire. I'm still working on another job, so it's okay. I tell these guys I spend too much money to be retired.

[00:46:41] Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Well that's a whole nother podcast too. The financial Yeah. Means to retire. Yeah. But, uh, no, I think that's great and thanks for everything you guys have shared today, so, okay. Thank

[00:46:50] Brady: you for having me.

[00:46:51] Jason: Thanks for having us.