Fire and Ice … Baths: Diving Into the Benefits of Cold Water Therapy

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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Brent Harding: We're back today with two repeat guests, Tyler Scriver and Neil Gibbons. Talking about the immense amount of suffering they have liked to cause the apartment. We're going to be talking about ice baths today and some of the benefits both physical fitness wise and also mental wellness wise. So let's just jump right in.

See what I did there? Jump right in.

[00:00:26] Tyler Scriver: Okay. Oh, it's cold.

[00:00:27] Brent Harding: We'll cut that part out. Neil, why don't you kick us off? Because if I think you have been researching and doing this the longest with the Wim Hof method stuff and cold showers. And so tell us a little bit about your journey with cold immersion and how you got into it and then what's kept you going with it.

[00:00:45] Neal Gibbons: Yeah and I can't really take... Credit for getting started on it by myself, I, I worked a lot with, with Ken Straw, Corey Bingham, that kind of introduced me to the Wim Hof method, and the more I started finding out about Wim Hof, it, it, his life story was just extraordinary, and just the things he was able to do physically, It is incredible and I started looking into that and reading his book is pretty interesting.

It's just, it's called the Wim Hof Method, but it's, it's a good read. If you're interested in this, I, that's where I started and getting into that. He talks about his, a little bit of his life story and then he just talks about how he found out or how he noticed that there was benefits from getting into cold water, or cold water immersion therapy.

And so I remember talking about it with Bingo one day and we were sitting around and I was like, this seems pretty hokey Bingo, and he's you got to try it and he eventually talked me into it. And it was just turning the shower all the way cold at the end of the shower. And, you, you talk to people and say, I've been taking cold showers and they're like, you take a cold shower.

And, and yeah, when I was on my mission in Haiti, we didn't have heated water. And so every shower was a cold shower. And you get used to it, but I mean that first, the first couple of drops of the little eight ounce cup, scooping it out of my five gallon bucket, shower bucket, I'd dump that on your head and every time it was just a, a good cold shock.

And that was probably the first time that I noticed the shock and how, how strange that was and... Looking back and thinking about that I've had the discussion with a couple of people, but my ability to thermoregulate in Haiti, I didn't feel like I was always burning, boiling hot, but I knew it was super hot outside.

It was super dry. And I carried a handkerchief in my pocket all the time and that was just to wipe my face and some poor white guy in the middle of Haiti where I didn't see another white person for a month at, at some points, but it was

[00:02:39] Brent Harding: clarified for our audience. This is a Christian mission, not prison.

Yeah, it was, it was not prison cups, five gallon buckets, hot as hell, but yeah, okay.

[00:02:48] Neal Gibbons: Hot as Haiti, but anyway, it was by choice to go there, but yeah, it's Getting there and doing that. Anyway, that's where I started doing it. And then, like doing tree work and being outside all day long, I would come in and just be overheated or felt like I was super warm and I'd take a cold shower in summers. And then as a firefighter, as I started talking to Corey about that and starting to make the connection between some of those things that, from my past and, what he was talking about, I was like, this, there is some real science there.

And I started doing, two or three minutes at the end of my showers I would just turn it all the way cold, or as cold as I could stand it. And Wim Hof, he, he talks about, it's not about going from zero to sixty. You, you start out with, fifteen seconds in the cold, as cold as is on, as, as you can stand it.

to where it's still uncomfortable, to where you still get that cold shock and working your way up to 30 seconds. And then, pretty soon you're doing a minute and pretty soon, it doesn't bother you anymore. And it still to this day, like when I get in if I start with a warm shower and I, once I turn a cold, I still get that initial shock.

Ooh, you get the That kind of takes your breath away, which, that's the point but doing that, there's, there's a ton of benefits, which we can, we'll, I'm sure we'll have time to touch on that later, but that's where I started and I've, I've been doing cold showers pretty much I don't think I've missed a shower where I haven't turned a cold in the last around three years, just over three years.

And that's, there's, I've seen a ton of huge benefits from that now that I understand a lot of the science behind it.

[00:04:22] Brent Harding: Yeah, I think that's awesome. It goes along with that. Everybody's familiar with building atomic habits. Even if it's, like you said, just for 15 seconds at the end of the shower or whatever, but just by doing it every time, you're starting to build that habit, and then it becomes...

That much easier every time if you make the habit of at least doing turn edge cold every single time. Have you noticed a difference since the more recent ice baths over cold showers? Or is it a pretty similar experience?

[00:04:47] Neal Gibbons: There is a difference because the ice bath is, is definitely more uncomfortable than the cold showers.

And I remember... With the cold showers, there's a day when, when Corey had been taking cold showers for a long time as well, but we both had been on that cold shower kick. We were on a traffic accident down in front of Macy's, and I remember one of the UHP guys was talking to us, and we had our bunker pants on, but he, he comes over and he's What are you guys doing?

It's starting to rain out here, and you guys are in t shirts. And me and Corey looked at each other and was like, Are you cold? No. Are you cold? No. And he had his big heavy, winter coat on. He was just like, you guys are insane. It's freezing out here. And I thought it's really pleasant.

And, the rain was a little bit chilly, but I felt fine. And that, that, now that reading some of that new. Or getting into some of the new data that we've, I've recently discovered, thanks to Tyler. It makes a lot of sense. And seeing my body's ability to thermoregulate back then versus now, the ice baths, it, it's...

I don't know, the ice baths are different because it makes you so uncomfortable, some, some joints hurt or some, some parts of your body hurt when you're in there, but then getting out it, you feel just that huge dopamine rush and you're, you feel so good for so long afterwards. I don't feel like I get super hot or super cold anymore when I go outside in whatever temperatures it is, and I still do a fair amount of work just out in the yard.

Last year going to wild land, there's, there's, there's all kinds of times doing tree work outside. It's, it's super hot, but I don't, I feel like I'm, Really getting overheated ever and same with the cold. I don't ever feel like I'm getting too cold My fingers my hands might get super cold if I don't have a decent set of gloves on or something But like I don't feel like I get I don't ever feel like I'm really cold or really hot anymore

[00:06:31] Brent Harding: Yeah, I think that's great.

I wish my story for getting into it was cooler, but it's nothing short of peer pressure from you two. So just so you guys would still be my friend. But Tyler, tell us a little bit how you got into it and what you've learned as you've gone along.

[00:06:43] Tyler Scriver: Yeah. For a while it was just kind of like something that was mentioned, Oh yeah, cold baths.

Joe Rogan getting a cold bath, and I didn't really have any desire to do it because I hate being cold. I absolutely loathe it. I tell my kids I would rather, burn alive than be cold for a second. But as a crew, we started watching, this documentary. I think it was called Limitless with, with Chris, Chris Hemsworth.

And part of that, he swims in the Alaskan sea or something crazy like that. The start of the episode, he... They're sitting on some port in Alaska, like Anchorage or something like that. And his coach was like, all right, let's get in the water. And he jumps in and he's Oh my gosh, it's cold.

And in seeing how much he struggled with it, us as a crew, we're like, okay, that's crazy. We're not going to do that. But by the end of the episode, we're like, we're doing it. And the next morning the plan was, is to clear out a recycling bin fill it full of snow and water and then jump in there.

So we were ready to roll and as luck would have it, have it I ended up going on a transfer to primary children's. Shock and I think, I can't remember who else was there, but yeah. Yeah. So we were there, we're getting ready to do it and then got to go on a transfer. So we go on our transfer and I'm driving and I'm listening to stuff, but the whole time I'm thinking about, I really do not want to do this anymore.

Like this is the worst idea ever. So we drop off our patient and we're driving back and I just finally told myself like, you're going to do it. You're going to do it. You're gonna get in there and, regardless of what happens you're gonna at least try something. Something new. Do something difficult.

Do something challenging. We pull in and Captain Shock, he has the recycling bin just chucked full of snow and ice. I think the first couple times we did this, I can't remember, was January or February or something crazy like that. And My partner, he's okay, like, when are we going to do this?

When, when it's going to happen? I was like, I'm doing it right now. And I just walked over, I took my clothes off. I had to climb up a ladder to get into the ice bath. And then I went in there and it was awesome. In the moment it was like a, at first, I was almost like a cat trying to stay out of the bathtub, I got my arms on the side of this recycling bin and I'm trying to keep every ounce of, every inch of my body out of it.

And I was like, no, I told myself I was going to do this. Then I dunked and Captain Shock was there and I, I remember going in and I'm thinking, I got to get out of here and I got to do it fast. And he just, as silly as it sounds, he just looked at me and said, Hey, Scriver, you're safe, buddy. Like you're okay.

And then this switch just flicked in my brain and I was like, I am safe. This is uncomfortable. This, the, my fingers, my toes, they hurt, but I'm safe and I can, and I can do this. Took a couple deep breaths. I can't remember how long I was in there the first time. And, I thought man, my whole body's in here and I'm doing this.

Then I look back at like the picture of my first ice bath and it was like barely up to my shoulders, it's crap that sucks next time I'm going all the way in well after my first one, then I really started to, to absorb some information about it, really tried to seek it out. I listened to a few podcasts and.

In these podcasts, you, you learn about all of this cool stuff that your body does when you submerge it into freezing cold water. And I needed to get more of it. It was weird cause it was there was, there was a mental part where I was like, I did something hard and I want to do that again, but this time I want to go for longer.

I don't know if it could get any colder because that. Recycling bin was chucked full of snow. But then my body was like, I like that. I know I usually have IT issues, IT band issues in my knee. And I got out and you're cold and whatnot. But throughout the day I noticed, man that sucker's gone.

Like I haven't felt that all day. We went and we did the stairs and I didn't feel it. I didn't feel it for a couple weeks. And I came back and I was like, I guess it's time for another ice bath. Then I was hooked. And we went from a recycling bin to, now we have like a, like a tote. And I've been in the Neal's Special, which is like the, the creme de la creme of ice baths.

That thing is awesome. But yeah, now. I can't go without it. It was like last week. I was in a bad mood. I had my kids and I was trying to be a good dad. We went to the swimming pool. I was tired from being on shift. I wanted to work out, but I was super sore and I just knew that, that I wasn't going to be able to get a good workout.

And I was like, I wonder what the 120 boys are doing right now. I was like, I should text him. I should go get in an ice bath. And then not even 20 minutes later, I get a picture of, There, Brent, his first ice bath, in there, and I was like, I, I gotta make this happen, that, that's I was gonna say that was my last one, but we did another one on shift, and I can't, now I can't get enough of them.

[00:11:36] Brent Harding: It's crazy cause I feel like, yeah, initially it was a hundred percent peer pressure for me, but then as I did it just a few more times since, like the first time I did it when I was super sore after a leg day and just that type of sore where if you sit down for more than three minutes, then to stand up is like excruciating, but man, after doing the ice bath out being that sore and then just having that that relief for a few hours after that ice bath, it felt so good.

That kind of got me more hooked beyond my initial reasons to get in. But it's funny that the same reasons that kept me out or similar to yours and that all my PTSD from. Being freezing cold on scout camps. I was like, no, I'm not getting in that. I hated those camps. It was so cold But let's talk about a few more benefits that you guys have seen Both physically and mentally and then we'll get into some maybe some do's and don'ts after that But you know what?

You've been doing it for a long time What are some of the benefits you've noticed in your life both physically and mentally?

[00:12:35] Neal Gibbons: Yeah And Kind of going back to just what you guys have both already said, the, the aspect of not being sore, taking away a lot of that inflammation, , especially anytime you're doing an extensive workout or doing something where you're just completely gassed afterwards you want to just have a way to, to get feeling better or try to prevent some of that soreness of the next day.

Okay. I've I've done that quite a few times and you know what the when we go to stairs, we put our our 35 pound air packs on and run around the football stadium or the basketball spectrum and it's it's a lot of stairs and a lot of times like mentally I I'm conflicted. I don't want to go, but I want to go because I want that feeling of afterwards.

Or feeling that I get after the, the workout that feeling of accomplishment, that, that dopamine release and then knowing that you did something super hard and how many benefits you're going to be gaining from that workout

Going back to that, um, the benefits from that, you, there's no, it doesn't seem like there's nearly as much inflammation for an extended period of time and, and recently, last Saturday, I went and did the Spartan Beast at Snow Basin, which was brutal and it, it took me six hours, nine minutes.

I did it last year. It was it's a 21K. It ended up being 15. 39 miles this year. And, I was feeling pretty good about it. Went home got some ice, threw it in the ice bath, and I sat in there and I just felt awesome. I knew I was going to be super sore. Getting out of the car just from driving home from Ogden Canyon, like I, it hurt to stand up.

I, so I drove to my brother in law's in Smithfield with my truck, which is a manual. So I get in my truck to drive home and I'm like struggling to push the clutch in and I get it in gear and then I just dry shifted the whole way home because I couldn't push the clutch in again. So, But getting home, like I got in the ice bath afterwards, I was like, I feel great.

I remember exactly how I felt last year after it, and it was like an extended two or three days that I felt terrible just my legs and everything was just shot. This year I had a little bit of soreness after the fact, but, I did the ice bath pretty much consecutively every day, since then, since last Saturday.

And yesterday was really the first day I hadn't done it, but I feel awesome. No inflammation, no, no super soreness.

[00:14:46] Brent Harding: Tyler, tell us a little bit more.

I know you've gone pretty deep into the science of some of the physiological benefits. Tell us a little bit about what's going on with your body when you do the cold immersion and why it's helpful for your body to go through that process.

[00:15:00] Tyler Scriver: Yeah, yeah. Initially you I mean, we could get crazy deep in this to the point where humans are some of the only Creatures out there and the whales are the other ones.

But we have a special section in our brain that allows us to do something that hurts, right? I'm going to jump in this ice. I know it's going to hurt, but I'm going to get some, some benefits out there. Most animals, most, most things out there, they don't, they can't do that. We and the, the volume of cells that we have in our brain, even compared to a whale, it's just crazy, crazy different.

So you get in there and you feel that shock, right? Your, your body's going to go into survival mode, which sounds like a horrible thing, but that's what our bodies are supposed to be doing. Our bodies are supposed to be protecting us. And we're supposed to have all this different kinds of stimulus, mental and physical and all that stuff.

So initially you're going to get a bunch of. epinephrine, you're going to get a bunch of norepinephrine. And you're, you're going to have like your peripheral arteries and capillaries and stuff like that. Those are all going to constrict. But this cool thing that happens is you, as you sit in there, your body actually makes this thermal layer around your body where it things, It's not that it's going to feel warm, but it doesn't necessarily get any colder which is a good survival technique.

We're going to talk about getting rid of that when you're in an ice bath to really just get the most out of the experience. So agitating the water, moving around, getting more of that cold, but yeah, doing the chicken wing. Yeah. So as you do that, the, there's all sorts of crazy stuff, cold shock proteins, proteins that your body doesn't release.

It doesn't, it doesn't use until you are in a quote unquote life or death situation to help your body survive. So those are going to be released. And then a lot of people, Or are unfamiliar, but you have this, you have fat that's around like your collarbones and it's, it's a specialized fat.

It's, you have brown fat and you have white fat, white fat would be the general adipose tissue, the, the, your body fat, love handles, that kind of stuff. The, the fact that people hate that really is just energy storage. Brown fat is actually almost like an organ. And it it helps with metabolism.

So when your body gets in that cold water, it's going to boost your metabolism. Most of the calories you burn throughout the day are just to maintain your body temperature. So when you drop that body temperature, you're going to have to start burning more calories in order to keep that up. There's when you get out of the ice bath, and you start to shiver, your body then starts to dilate all those blood vessels, it starts to warm up it actually...

It's the normal, the normal rhythm throughout the day is you start cold from when you're sleeping, you warm up a couple degrees as you're awake, and then as you fall asleep, your body starts to cool down again. What the ice bath does is it cools your body super fast, but when you get out, your body then has to warm up.

So it'll help with the whole waking process. One of the don'ts is don't do it right before bed. It's like caffeine. Some people can do it. Some people shouldn't do it, but it warms up your body, which wakes you up. And then we could, we could

[00:18:17] Brent Harding: that's one of the biggest, Mental benefits I've seen like just this last shift like sometimes especially if it's a little slower or whatever And even if you're trying to stay busy, it just seems like there's an afternoon Like lull where it's super hard to stay motivated to keep training or to keep studying or to keep working on whatever you're doing.

But man, every time I've gotten to that point, then I just tell myself, okay, I'm going to do a nice bath. And then it is, it's like starting fresh in the morning, ready to go. Like I just got out of bed and you just feel a renewed sense of, I don't know, motivation and energy to like, and I feel, and I've seen it even on the off days, like it's, it's been, cause I feel like I try to stay pretty busy on my four off, but if I'm starting to feel that way during the day too, I'll text the guys at 120.

Hey, do you mind if I come up and take a nice bath real quick? Because man, when I do it and then I come back to the office or whatever, I am so much more productive because my body's just more, I don't know, I guess waking up and ready to go. Yeah.

[00:19:14] Tyler Scriver: You think we, we consume caffeine to block, The the tired hormone which is melatonin.

Nope. That's one of them. And then it starts with an A, adenosine, adenosine. Thank

[00:19:24] Brent Harding: you. I'm not a medic by the way. I'm just an

[00:19:26] Tyler Scriver: AMT. Yeah. So caffeine blocks the adenosine receptors in your body. And that's all it does. That's why you have that crash. You drink caffeine, it blocks it like Narcan, right? It makes you so adenosine can't go into those receptors. When caffeine is gone, you have more adenosine in there and so you feel more tired.

So you're going to drink more caffeine, right? An ice bath is your physiological, drinking caffeine without the caffeine in your body is going to do a 10 times better job than any kind of chemical that you can put into it. So yeah, you get that awakeness that wakefulness. And then Neil was talking about that dopamine.

So you did something hard and as a reward, you're going to feel good because you get this, this other neurotransmitter, you get dopamine that's released into your body. And you feel accomplished and you feel motivated. And then, We, we mentioned it for a second, but for chronic pain, actually Jason Ward he was a, he came up and he worked a, a shift at 71 with us and he did not want to get in there.

And he was complaining about having some sciatic pain and the way that I peer pressured him into it. I was like, dude, you're getting that ice back. You're not, you're not going to fill your sciatic. Like it's, it's, it's going to take your breath away, but I guarantee you after that you're not going to, you're not going to even notice it's there.

Jumps in the ice bath. He stays in there for, I don't know, five, six minutes like a champ. He gets out, he warms up and he's going throughout the day and the next, the next morning he's I haven't felt my sciatic pain since we got in there and we got him hooked. And then he, the next thing I know he's at 72 and they've got an ice bath going down there.

And now everybody's jumping in the ice bath at 72. The reason why is because Jason, he was hurting. He's like my IT band. It hurts. It sucks. But you jump in there, that pain goes away, and man, it feels so good to be pain free. Yeah.

[00:21:10] Brent Harding: There's There's a couple other benefits too that I've heard about, but I don't know any of the science behind them.

It's like immune system boost. It helps better sleep at night if you don't do it right before you go to bed. But either of you familiar with any of the why it's helpful in those areas?

[00:21:25] Neal Gibbons: Yeah, the and actually Tyler, he introduced me to, there's a lady, Dr. Susanna Soberg from Denmark. She did a podcast with the Huberman Lab guy and, she was talking about immunity boosting and she, like I, in the Scandinavian countries, they'll take their babies and put them in the, their strollers or she calls them prams, but they put them outside to take a nap and they have that cold.

Exposure in the winter time on their face and a lot of our receptors are in our face. That's, that's partially why like when we talk about doing a vagal response or trying to help somebody in SVT, you can, one of the options is to put ice on their face or put their face in a bowl of ice water, which isn't, doesn't seem like it's a great idea.

We're going to drown this person in ice water to help slow their heart down. But the, the science behind that is that's going to initiate that initial shock, activate that catecholamine response with the, like what Tyler talked about, the norepinephrine, epinephrine the dopamine, but that helps to shock the body.

And the more shocks that you get with that the lady she talks about that's going to be what helps build the immunity of people and they do with their babies and that helps them build a better immunity that sustains throughout their life. And I think partially it's just because it's, it's colder there in Scandinavia, they're able to do that.

And they continue to do that where they grew up being exposed to that extreme cold. And that's one. Like she talks a bit. I think she now she does like to have a whole bunch of people out in the bay that just go hop in the bay in the wintertime and go for a swim. They do it every day. And, doing that type of a thing, just being able to shock your body.

It builds up the immunity level. And it's, it's just our natural body's response and I, I don't fully understand the science behind it, but it works and I, being a paramedic, I should know that type of thing, but I really don't.

[00:23:11] Tyler Scriver: One other one that I, I failed to mention was there recently has been a study on doing a cold bath before you do resistance training.

And we'll talk about cold baths and resistance training when we'd come to the do the don'ts. But, this group of, I want to say they were Australians two groups, one that was just doing resistance training, one that would do a cold bath or cold exposure and then do resistance training. The cold bath and the resistance training had a crazy significant increase in testosterone and Men, we, we need high testosterone levels.

Crazy thing. Women, they also need testosterone. Doing that cold exposure, doing that resistance training has helped maximize that group of individuals. Testosterone levels. So sleep, testosterone pain control. It's, it's pretty awesome what you can do with a little bit of cold water.

[00:23:58] Brent Harding: Yeah. And I think circling back to the Wim Hof method, right? It's almost like the more that practice you get at this and putting your body into that survival mode, because during survival mode, you're at your peak performance for everything, right? Like your body's doing everything to help you survive and getting to the point where you can control that a little bit more.

You're not, That's not circumstantial to where you have to wait to be in a circumstance for your body to go into that mode, but to be in practice to where you're in control of when you put yourself into that mode. And it seems like that's where Wim Hof is, right? Like he can control his core body temperature whenever he wants.

And that's pretty crazy. So yeah, just, the benefits so far outweigh the discomfort. That you just have to start believing it. And, and it's, from my experience, it sounds like Ward's experience, and some of you guys experience, you just have to experience the benefit one time, and then that pain free, that rejuvenation, and then you're hooked.

And I think for anybody out there that's been skeptical man, just giving it one try, which really, you can... Get a lot of benefit out of just for the one time, but you'll, you'll be hooked. So let's go over, let's start into some of the do's and don'ts. Cause there definitely is a wrong way to do it.

That can not be helpful and be harmful to your workout routine and other things. And then also some good things to consider when starting. And I think we can work from like a basic level to an advanced level, cause I think you sent me that Huberman thing the other day that said. Five minutes at 60 degrees is still helpful.

So you don't have to go to 32. 6 for 15 minutes, to like right out of the gate. There is a way you can work into maybe more colder, more time or whatever, but you can get immediate benefits from, what he called an annoyingly cold

[00:25:44] Tyler Scriver: exposure. Yeah. I guess I'll start. General rule of thumb is you...

Okay, so the colder, the less time that you have to spend in there. If you're, and, and the hard part with this is a lot of people, they want to know hard and fast what the temperature is, how long do I need to stay in there? And it's for, even for the mental benefits, it all depends on how acclimated you are to the cold.

So if Neil were to get in there for a 60 degree temperatures, he'd probably feel like he's in a hot tub. We didn't

[00:26:14] Brent Harding: all spend time in a Haitian prison.

[00:26:16] Tyler Scriver: Yeah. But there are other people out there that 60 degrees is cold. And if they get in there five, six minutes, they're going to get a, even just one exposure a week, they're going to get a mood boost from that dopamine.

So the colder, the less time that you need to spend in there. But again, it just goes off of that general rule of thumb that you want to try to have at least 11 minutes total exposure throughout the week, not in one single sitting. The first time the dang shock family came up and did it. At this point we've been doing it for a couple of weeks and we're like, Oh yeah, we're going to look like rock stars.

I get in there, I'm in there for seven minutes. I'm like, so cool. It's a talia shock. JC shock, Jesse shock, they jump in there and they're in there for 15 minutes. And we're like, throw some snow in there, make it uncomfortable for them. They still just rock. Just, just in there dunking their heads.

It's you guys suck. That'd be a good example of maybe you spend a little bit more time. You definitely need to be safe. Cold baths. Awesome. Cold controlling the environment. And controlling the situations around it, right? You're in a tub versus a lake or a river. You go out into a really cold river, and you're out there for too long, you could drown.

Be careful with that. Jumping in a tub, just remember Andy telling you that you're safe. It doesn't, six minutes. is about the most benefit that you're going to get for as far as your body goes, but the mental benefit of being in there for a little bit longer, up to 15 minutes, somewhere around there.

Those are some good places to start. So if it were me and I were to do it all over again, I would skip the recycling bin. Cause that was gross. I would get, a set up like you guys have at one 20, throw some ice and some water. And I would practice just going in, staying in there for a couple of minutes and then coming out and then trying to get that 11 minutes throughout the week.

As far as exercise and training and things like that, you got to decide what. Are you training for if you're training for hypertrophy or strength? So if you're trying to build muscle or build strength You shouldn't do a cold bath after you work out the longer you wait between when you work out to When you have that cold exposure the better so it's a minimum of four hours preferably six to eight hours My perfect day wake up getting a cold bath go to the gym, do a good warmup, spend 15 minutes getting all the blood back into my fingers and my toes doing a lift and then being done.

And then probably, if I was feeling really crazy, probably around six. Six o'clock at night and jumping in for another short exposure. If you are training for a Spartan, if you are training for a half marathon, if you're doing endurance type training, you can do a cold bath right after, right?

If you're training for a marathon and you have a week where you have tons and tons of miles that week, jump into a cold bath right after you're done training cuz. Part of that with the endurance is recovering and recovering quickly that cold bath that cold exposure is gonna gonna help you do that process You can wear gloves.

You can wear booties Some people they they don't like the way it makes their hands feel keep your hands out of the water put gloves on there's If you have neuropathy in your, in your fingers and your toes, it can be very painful. So either keep them out of the water or get these little booties, put those on there and then jump in.

Is it important to go

[00:29:31] Brent Harding: up to, is it important to go up to your shoulders?

[00:29:34] Tyler Scriver: Up to your neck is preferred. Yep. Yep. Up to your neck is preferred. The other thing that you can do is if you get a headache when you, you jump in there cause you're up to your neck, you can put a cap on, put a a stocking cap on and that's supposed to help prevent those headaches from happening.

[00:29:47] Brent Harding: So Neil made me dunk my head this last time. Good. He threatened to do. I don't know if this is like peer pressure hazing, I haven't found that line yet. But is there, what are the, is that a do or a don't, doesn't matter.

[00:30:00] Tyler Scriver: Yeah. I know what Neil's going to say, it's, I say do it at least a couple of times.

You have that, you can have that experience dunking your head is going to speed up how much heat you lose. Your body temperature might drop a little bit faster. You might not be able to stay in there safely if you, if you dunk your head. I, I tell you what, there are times that I crave to have my face in cold water now.

And when I jump in that ice bath and at the moment I'm like, there's no way I'm going to put my head underwater. But when I do put my head underwater, hold my breath for a little bit, come back up. It's, it's like a second shock to the body. It's like a whole, a whole nother cold exposure as far as those mental benefits go.

But if you're starting out and you're, you don't want to do that. Don't do it. Leave your head above water. Get some, get some experience underneath your belt. And then, and then at least try it a couple times. Especially if your captain tells you to. Yeah, no, especially

[00:30:54] Neal Gibbons: if he does. Yeah, I do think there, there's a lot to it just with the extra thermal receptors that you have in your head your hands and your feet.

I would always suggest getting full, full body immersion and and like you said, getting booties or gloves or even keeping your hands above the water. As long as you get in and get that initial response, there's, there is nothing wrong with getting your hands, fingers, putting them up on the sides or, or, getting them out of that water.

Because we've talked to a lot of people that have done it that they do, they have just like deep bone pain that neuropathy or and they, that, that kind of steers a lot of people away from wanting to do it again. And it's you don't have to get them in there and keep them in there. And it's just like the face, I, I like to do the same thing, get that, that secondary shock.

And I've, I've tried to. See how long I can hold my breath under the water and you come back up. And usually when I pop back up, I want to get out now. And so it's been another difficult thing for me to tell myself, no, let's stay in for another minute. And then at the end of that minute, it's I'm going to dunk my head again.

That was awesome. Because by that time with your head being the only thing above water, it's warming back up pretty quick. But that's, that's something that, I'd always suggest is getting that. That head immersion because just added benefits from that secondary shock, like you talked about Tyler and then those extra thermal receptors being able to do that.

And even if you're doing cold showers, that starting out with cold shower, get it uncomfortably cold to where you can stand it. And, I usually do 15 seconds on my chest, 15 seconds on my arm, 15 seconds on my back and then my other arm, and then I slowly put my head under and to this day I still get that initial shock, just taking your breath away.

But then seeing how long I can keep my face in that cold water is, it almost becomes like a challenge or it becomes like a, another thing, another hurdle to, to get past and another mental hurdle, but there, there's huge benefits from that. So a lot of people out there that don't want to get into the cold bath, just start out with the shower.

Just try turning it as cold as you can get it. As cold as you can stand it and understand like your body is going to, the temperature regulate itself and then get to where you're able to stand that. And it doesn't feel as cold after, that 15, 30 seconds and especially once you start like on your chest, if you do the full twirl, once you come back to your chest, that water does not feel that cold anymore.

And it's just like that experiment back in the day when you hold a cup of ice water and a cup of hot water in one each hand and then you hold the same cup of the same temperature in the middle and they both feel different, both hands feel different, your body will acclimate to whatever temperature you've got it on, but being able to do that and start out just with the shower and work up to the cold plunge is, is, it's huge benefits.

[00:33:30] Brent Harding: Does that come back to the time and the temperature to where it should never feel super comfortable, right? And if it does, that's probably a sign you should be doing it colder or, longer or anything like that.

[00:33:43] Neal Gibbons: Yeah, and it's it's that initial shock that you're looking for if you're getting to the point where you don't get that shock You're you know, you should be looking for getting that just pushing it a little bit further Because even like as as used to it as I am like when I get in the cold bath that the ice bath It is cold and I get that shock and I still do get that shock from when I jump into the or when I get in the shower and turn it cold and it's For me, it hasn't ever gone away and that's, I've been doing it for quite a while, not nearly as long as Wim Hof, but I'd, I'd be curious to have a conversation with him and say, how much of a shock is it still for you?

Which knowing the science and understanding that now that initial shock on your skin, that is what gives you that thermal regulation response. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:27] Tyler Scriver: That cold shock, man. I brought my kids up to one 20. To do a cold bath. My, my two girls they were dead set. We're gonna do this, we're gonna get in there.

And they had done one previously at 71. So I get up there, and I'm throwing ice into this, Into the, the trough. And it's 40 degrees. And they're like, oh man, that's cold. And I'm trying to act all cool. Yeah, it's fine, it's nothing. Keep throwing some ice in there. My oldest, she decides, okay, now I'm getting in.

This is when I get in. So she gets in there, and she jumps in and she stops about the water levels about chest high, and she's man, nope. She's making silly excuses like, I don't want to get water on my shoulders and stuff like that. And I'm just being super encouraging. Parley, you can do this.

Just, just go all the way in up to your neck. Just, just make it happen a little bit. She goes in there, she goes up to her neck, she instantly comes back up, and then I watch. And she slowly sinks back in there and where she was like, I don't want to get my shoulders in the water. She's almost up to her neck and she was there for about three minutes.

Then my my middle child, she, her, her best was to get in there. She's, she went a hundred percent all, but drowned herself in the thing. And she stood back up and she got out and then it was my turn. And I'm like, I got this. And I stood there for half a second I don't want to do this, but I knew in my, in my executive brain, I'm in control.

I'm the boss, this little primitive brain inside my head. That's no, you can't do this. Why would you, you're going to die. Nope. Sorry, buddy. I'm going to think my way through this and I jumped in and I was able to keep the respect of my children as a man and a father because I didn't, I didn't whip out.

But it's always there that, that shock that once I get up to that, that lip, whether it be the plunge tub, whether it be the, the recycling bin, like I don't want to do it, but I can tell myself that I'm in control. That this survival brain sure it's important, but I can override it with, with just clear direct thought controlling my breathing, get into that water and reap those benefits and still have that.

Oh my gosh. This is so cool. What am I doing? And. Tell myself I'm safe. Take a couple of breaths. Yeah. It's usually about the five or six, six minute mark. I start shaking uncontrollably and then my wife makes fun of me, but like I'm just agitating the water. I don't have to do the chicken wink. It's there every

[00:36:40] Brent Harding: time.

So tell us a little bit about that with the okay. So three questions. One want to talk about agitating the water, why that's helpful. And is there a temperature that's too cold? We got ours down to 32. 6 and I started thinking there's probably a line where we're about to cross where we shouldn't get in.

It's detrimental. And is there a temperature that's too cold that you definitely should not do? And then, back to the, the time limit. Is there a minimum? I think I've heard three minutes before is like a minimum amount of time you should spend in there to just start getting benefits.

So if you do it less than that, you're really not accomplishing or hitting that threshold of, I don't know. Does that make any sense?

[00:37:17] Tyler Scriver: Yes, sir.

[00:37:17] Neal Gibbons: Yeah the minute, the time threshold, that and I would advise anybody that wants to know the science behind it and understand that better, way better than either one of us could explain it, that, that Huberman Labs podcast with Dr.

Soberg, it's super great, super explains everything really well but doing that, the three to five minute is that mark where, you're going to be getting the maximum benefits. But. Yeah. In, in her book, she talks, the winter swimming Dr. Silbert talks about just that initial shock is what is the most important part of it and getting that initial shock, even if you just get in and hop right back out, like your middle child, doing going, pedal to the metal, jump in and jump right back out, she's still going to be getting a lot of benefits from that, but to maximize the benefits, that three to five minute window is really where you want to be time wise.

But that's you've seen guys that hop in after, I believe your first time you hopped in, you're in there for 50 seconds. I was hoping that wouldn't be

[00:38:13] Brent Harding: brought up, but it's fine, it's fine, I can take it. And

[00:38:16] Neal Gibbons: that, that initial 50 seconds you, you, and to your credit, Brent, you're like, that is bull crap.

I'm not going to accept that. You jump back in and then you're like, nope. Then that third time you're like, I am going to three minutes. Once you get in it, it's amazing. You watch anybody their first time, that first minute and a half or two minutes, they are still in that sympathetic nervous system response, fight or flight.

You can see it in their eyes. You see it in their face. They're just like, I have got to get out of here. Now, once you hit that, for me, it's about a minute and a half after that minute and a half. For me, it's just this is pleasant. I'm. pretty, pretty comfortable in here, start doing the chicken wing or start shivering and start moving that water around to, to keep that cold water on you.

Keep that shock happening. That's, that's a, that's super important. You look at the collegiate athletes and they've been doing this way before any of us ever thought that we had discovered this new fancy thing. My dang wife. Yeah, we don't want to talk about her. But when they, they, after After a game or sometimes in the halftimes, they will jump into that ice bath and that is huge for their recovery, but a lot of those have a swirling or they have a or just a whirlpool agitator that keeps that water moving so that it doesn't sit and you don't build that warm water barrier around your body, but keeping that, that agitation, keeping that water moving is, is super important.

[00:39:32] Tyler Scriver: Yeah. We had a guy that he made the comment, man, this has gotta be so much worse for you cuz you shave your, you shave your body. And I was like, I don't know, I've always just done it, so he decided he was gonna shave his body and he jumped in and he said it was the worst thing ever because that thermal barrier that your body creates, right?

Your hair stand up on hair. Yeah, yeah, get rid of it. Try it out that your hair stands up and it creates that thermal layer And he said it was it was night and day difference Time yeah, so I mean if you want most of the benefits Three minutes right if you if you want to try and get the most physiologically out of that awesome, but I equate it to It's just like working out.

If you get on a treadmill and the most you can do is 15 minutes, that's 15 minutes more than you, that you did versus sitting on the couch. If you get in there and you dunk your whole body in and you get out, you never would have done that, right? You least we're in there for. Five, 10 seconds longer than if you would have just talked yourself out of it.

Can it be too cold? Yeah. So the things you start to worry about at like those, those freezing temperatures and for the most part, the exposure is you're, you're, again, you're, it's a controlled, relatively safe environment, but if you're going longer periods of times, look out for hypothermia. I don't know if somebody could get frostbite from it, but before we retired the, the recycling bin, we decided how, how cold can we get this thing?

And there was probably a foot and a half of snow and ice on the top layer of the sink. So I jumped in there and I'd done it a couple of times. I'm straight up to my neck and I can feel it on my back and not so much the cold water. But I could feel, it's just like when it snows outside and it's been out there for a while, you try to run through it and it's it's crusty and it can scrape your foot up and stuff like that.

I can feel that on my back a little bit. So as we're going, I'm trying to agitate, I'm trying to move. I get out. And it looked like I had They had scratches all over my back. It, it was superficial, nothing too crazy, nothing too horrible right there, but something to think about. You have ice sitting directly on your skin.

Your chances for getting frostbite at that, at that point is probably a little bit more, right? If you're going to go in there for, for 15 minutes, maybe you might have some stuff, you might have some issues with, with that right there,

[00:41:47] Brent Harding: but is there any issues with 15 minutes, 35 degrees. There is.

[00:41:51] Tyler Scriver: Yep.

But yeah, those would be things that kids, kids can do ice baths, but they lose body heat faster they just, they don't need to be in as long. Look for signs for hypothermia, that kind of stuff, and I can't, it, it usually takes a bit. There's actually, I was trying to find a chart that says, this is how long you should be in an ice bath if it's this temperature.

There weren't very many of those charts, but I'll tell you what there were a lot of charts for. This is the temperature. This is when you're going to start losing dexterity. This is when you die. And so if you're worried, you can just Google search ice bath graphs and there's tons like military has, has researched this for diving and all sorts of stuff.

There is, there is too much, but if you're doing that 11 minutes a week, maybe even more, right? But you're keeping those exposures to like a five, three to five minutes. I think you're fairly safe. Keep the ego

[00:42:38] Brent Harding: out of it, right? I think if you're going like these crazy temperatures, crazy lanes, it has less to do with trying to get benefit.

It's more about proving something or whatever, right? Yeah, yeah. What about breathing during the whole thing? Because Wim Hof, like you can hyperventilate before you get in. Then breathing during, like how does that, is there any do's or don'ts with breathing that you guys have found helpful?

[00:43:00] Neal Gibbons: Yeah, and for, one of the biggest benefits, the Wim Hof breathing is just controlling your breathing.

He talks about taking those deep breaths in, filling up all your alveoli, getting the maximum expansion and just doing a couple of quick, a couple of super deep breaths. You can feel like, for me, I can feel all that oxygen, all that blood flowing out throughout my whole body. And most people, you. Don't look for that feeling but if you do take a couple of super deep breaths, you can feel it You've got that rush of all that blood flow.

And so getting in there. There's a couple things with that blood flow Or with that Wim Hof breathing you get in this super deep breath through in through your nose and then a long extended breath out Through your mouth. That is where like it's doing a couple things. You're helping out your executive versus primitive brain because you're thinking about controlling your breathing, which we all know the box breathing is a super good way to get out of that primitive brain.

And for a quick explanation, box breathing is just four seconds, inhale for a second, pause for a second, exhale for a second, pause, and that it creates a box with your breathing. But doing that a couple of times helps you get out of that primitive brain. And for being in the bath, like especially with my kids, all three of my kids have been in the ice bath and every time I try to coach them and say, hey, you need a big deep breath in through your nose and then slowly exhale through your mouth.

And for them, once they can start thinking about that and engaging that executive brain you can see the, you can see the response on their faces. And they're physiologically like they start to calm down, they start to control their breathing. They start to have, gain control of their body and be able to say, Yes, I can do this.

This is a hard thing, but I am safe. I am capable of doing this. So controlling that breathing, I think is super important. And there's, there's the other end of the spectrum, like you can't hyperventilate in there. And there's been times like when we got it down to 32 points. Four degree or whatever it was the other day, like I got in there and there was probably six, eight inches of ice on the top layer of there.

And when I got in there, I started breathing I thought I was controlling my breathing, but pretty soon my ear lobes in like the back of my face was starting to feel numb. And then my pretty soon I'm doing the who with my lips doing like closing them off. I'm like, Hey, I'm hyperventilating here. I'm breathing a little too fast trying to control my breathing.

And so being able to notice those things is super important to say, I have to slow it down or, get, get control of my breathing. But I do think that the pre oxygenation or the deep breathing beforehand, I think any good deep breathing is always beneficial. And Wim Hof's always going to suggest controlling that breathing, a forceful push out.

Or forceful exhale after a good deep inhale is, is always a good idea, but that's from what I've seen, it really does help. It's, it's a good way to get control of yourself and keep that control.

[00:45:56] Tyler Scriver: Yeah, I love that. I, I love it. Definitely don't hyperventilate if you're doing open water, right?

So if I hyperventilate and then I go in that cold water, you could pass out, you could drown, things like that. Practice messing with your breathing. I, Brent, you asked me the other day, Hey, do you hyperventilate before I go in there? And I just get in there. And then when the first couple of minutes, the first thing I try to do is think, okay, calm my focus, my breathing, figure that out.

I, Watched your, the, the Wim Hof documentary. And that's, that's the breathing that I try to do. Long, a good forceful fill my whole lung both my lungs with oxygen and then breathe out. And I've noticed that if I focus my breathing, I start shivering way later. Then if I just we're talking and I'm, and I'm distracted then I'll start shivering right off the bat.

If I breathe, I focus on that, I can go longer without shivering. The first time my oldest got in the the ice bath, I got a video of her and again, my stupid wife, she's gotta be a hero and everything. She's done ice bath for years of being a collegiate athlete, but my oldest, she gets in the water and you can see the panic in her eyes and she looks at me and I can, I can read her brain.

She said, Nope, you're not any help. And then she looks over and she looks at Aaron and they make eye contact and Aaron's take a deep breath, par. Breathe, and you see her, and she takes a deep breath in through her nose, and she breathes out. And then, all of a sudden, that brain, that executive brain, takes over.

And you can see it just a switch, just through focusing on your breathing. And that's what, that's, again, exactly how she was coaching her. Long, deep breath, inhale. And then, let it out.

And that's, that's now how I try to do it. Because of Wim Hof, not because of my wife.

[00:47:37] Brent Harding: And I think for me, that's the hardest part to get control of. Cause I tell myself I'm going to do it, but it seems like that first minute and a half, like I'm trying to control it, but it's more it's just like a panic, but I think that's a good, like for me, that's a new way to look at it.

And a new goal is my first objective when I get in this water is to. take control back of my breathing because my body's going to have its response and and the faster I can and that's just something to practice so that yeah if I can do that and instead of it taking a Minute half for me to gain that control back and get at the point where I can do it faster and faster Then I think that's a helpful physiological thing to get control of Just as we we wrap up here I want to end on and you know this whole thing could be a whole another podcast in itself And maybe it will be but I just want to talk for a minute and if everybody maybe shares One or two insights on, on this part of just why it's important to do things you don't want to do, and why is that helpful for resiliency for just overall kind of building character and, and just being a good person and.

And, and ultimately being a good firefighter. Why is that an important mental aspect of practice and to kind of master? And then we'll wrap up and go from there. Like I said, I know that could be a whole podcast in and of itself, but for me with the first experience of doing it, that's what bothered me the most is 45 seconds.

And it's I didn't want to do that. And I gave in, I got out and that bugged me. And to the point where I just didn't want to let that be how that experience ended. And but I think there's something to being able to just tell yourself, I definitely don't want to do this, but I'm going to do it anyway, because it has to be done.

And certainly in firefighting, there's the dramatic moments of, fire and rescue and where No one wants to go in this claustrophobic, smoky, hot space, right? But it's a job that has to be done. There's also those moments at 3 in the morning when the frequent flyer falls out of bed. And we also don't want to do that, but it needs to be done, right?

And how has, I don't know, how has that impacted you through ice baths and building that? Doing what you don't want to do, mental toughness, and how has it benefited you from, from your life? I know Neil grew up on a farm and, just with, building that initial resiliency out of the gate as a kid, how has that kind of impacted your life and, and made you who you are today?

[00:49:58] Neal Gibbons: Yeah I think that, being able to do hard things is, is something You mentioned the farm. Two in the morning the cows are out. We got to get up and go get them back in. Get them rounded up and get them back in their pen. Getting up at 3. 30 in the morning and going out to milk cows or feed cows in the middle of the winter.

I remember in high school it was like negative 38, 39 one morning and that was miserable. But the cows never took a holiday. Same thing in emergency response. 9 1 1 doesn't ever, doesn't ever take a holiday. We're there 24 hours a day, getting up and saying, Yeah, the public has an expectation for us to perform.

And it doesn't matter if we're, doing a lift assist, helping grandma get back into bed, or if we're doing a, a surgical cricothyroidomy we have an expectation to perform. And, whether we're ready or not, the public needs us. And I think for me being able to get past that mental block of, yes, I can do something hard, as an adult one of the hardest things for me at times, like I come home from work or I get home from doing a long day of tree work, I'm, I'm dead tired.

And, and my second boy, John, he's dad, let's go play King goalie out on the front lawn. It's I am so tired. That is the last thing that I want to do, but I am not going to miss out on a chance to go out and kick the ball around and potentially get hit in the. in the the bad spot as he likes to say it and do that, which that's another story.

But anyway being able to, go out and do those things. And my brother, Jason, he said it the other day, he's like being the yes man, for your kids. Like they, they ask you to do something every time it should be a yes. Every time they ask you to go play or go play Barbies with Maggie or go whatever it is.

Every answer for those kids should be. Yes, absolutely. Let's go do it. No matter how tired, no matter how bad you don't want to do it being there for your kids is huge. And so I think that aspect of doing something hard has really helped me to have that realization that, it doesn't matter how hard something's going to be, whether it's a Spartan race or whether I'm combing out a tangle in Barbie's hair, like those things, those things they're, they're, they're going to happen or whether, they'll happen or they won't.

The fact is, I want to choose to be there for those opportunities. I want those opportunities to, to continue to come. I don't want my kids to say dad's not going to do this because he's tired. He's not going to want to do this because he's tired or whatever else. And then the same goes for being there with the crew.

Ryan is always Hey, let's go do the stairs. What time you guys want to go? And I'm usually dragging my feet. And, usually the rest of the crew is pretty on top. We're like, yeah, let's go. But every time, like he says that I do not want to be the guy that says I'm too tired.

I don't want to go do it. I'm too sore. I don't want to go do it. But being there for your crew being a part of them and then just being able to be the yes man for all those, those little, the little things, little things count for your kids, for your crew for all of it. And even going that extra mile, Brunicini talks about it's all about Mrs.

Smith, checking to make sure that the dog wasn't let out or checking to make sure that, the, the door is locked behind so and so at the, the nursing home to make sure none of their stuff is, is taken or going away and make sure they have their phone. Those little things that we don't necessarily have to do them.

But going that extra mile and doing them is going to change us into being that super dad, into being that super firefighter to being that super example to all those people around us, to just be there and be that guy that people say, I need something done. I need somebody to come dig up my front yard.

Cole's going to do it.

[00:53:25] Brent Harding: Because he's easily taken advantage of.

[00:53:28] Neal Gibbons: No, because he's, he's going to do it. He's the man. Yeah.

[00:53:30] Tyler Scriver: Yeah, from first hand experience, I know Cole is the man. He will come dig up your front yard. Yeah, that's awesome I knew I should have went first because no matter what I say after this is gonna seem dumb compared to yours.

Oh, hey, whatever a couple things for me is one I've always hated Hearing like, Oh, when you're after, after 30, you're going to start to lose 1% of this in your muscle mass. And, I saw a thing the other day, speaking of Luke, he reminded me that I should probably review the facts on it. There's this thing is like most people after 30, they're not going to sprint.

They're not going to purposely expose themselves to cold water. They're not going to do hard things. And I'm like 30. I'm 35, that's dumb. I want to be able to do that stuff way later in life. I, I always told myself I want to be that strong grandpa. I want my, I want my grandchildren to be like, oh.

Grand prescriber, he's got it. He'll come take care of this. I don't want to be some feeble, sits on a couch kind of a thing. I've tested my body. This is just another way to test my body. This is just another way to improve that mental fortitude. I, coming back from that, that transfer at Primary Children's, I don't want to do this.

It's going to be cold. You hate being cold. Yeah, I hate being cold because it's miserable and it's the worst. Shut up. You're going to get in there. You're going to back into the bay. You're going to take your clothes off. You're going to jump in that dang thing. And you're going to stay in there. And you're going to do it.

Okay. Yes sir. Yes sir. Mr. Executive Brains here. I'm going to deal with that. I think that is really important. To, to developing our brains and keeping our brain alive. We, we have this habit as human beings to find comfort. And once we get to that point where we, we're comfortable in our lives. Then when things get really uncomfortable, they're really uncomfortable.

And I don't want that to be the case. I always want to be in a growth situation, whether it be going to bomb school and right after paramedic school, or right after critical care school or whatever. Like I, I want to prove to myself that I can do these things and it's, and it starts with getting in cold water.

If I can tell myself, look, dude, You're smart enough to pass this. Anatomy, physiology quiz. Awesome. The worst thing I'll probably do today is get into a cold bath. Oh, but I love that now. It hurts and it sucks. And I initially don't want to do it, but I'm going to do it. And then I feel like that transfers over into what Neal was saying.

It might be one o'clock at night and the tones go off and you're ready to save someone's life or to do something cool. You're just taking somebody back to a nursing home. That person, who I, I'm the patient person, they don't care what I signed up for. They don't care if I haven't been on a structure fire.

What they need from me is they need me to be a human and to get them back to where they feel comfortable and where they need to be safe. And they need to do those things. And if I can tell myself, get in some cold water, it's going to be painful. Then I can tell myself I can be a human to this person regardless of the situation.

If it's grandma, she fell down, we got to pick her up. If whatever the situation is, that positive mindset of I can do this, I'm safe, I'm strong, like more than just physically strong. I'm mentally strong. I'm gonna test myself every single time every single day I'm gonna do something hard and you know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna pass that test and if I don't pass it the first day or if I don't pass it the first time I only Spend 45 seconds in that water I'm gonna beat myself up until I get in there for that two or three minutes and and I pass that test and the crazy Thing about cold waters.

I don't think it gets any easier. I mean it gets I definitely start to notice things Like you're talking about taking a deep breath and filling your filling your blood go throughout your your fingers and your toes You I know that sensation. I didn't know what it was, but as you explain it, man, I'm excited to get in there again and to really focus on that.

Catch my breath, tell my breath, I'm the boss and I'm going to do this. And then notice those little tiny small things. And, and I know that that mental fortitude will transfer over to doing things that I didn't sign up to do. But that person who, who needs my help. They don't care. They don't care what I signed up for, but I'm there.

I'm there to do it. I'm there. I'm going to be pleasant, and I'm going to give them the best care that I possibly can.

[00:57:37] Brent Harding: Yeah, and I think you both hit on this really well, but you're essentially building up these bank of experiences that you can draw on. So when that crappy moment comes up later, you can say at least it's not a 32 degree ice bath.

I've done that, been there, done that. And so this isn't that bad. Or this isn't picking up rocks in the field. Like this work really isn't that hard because you have this bank of experiences that were harder that you lived and you survived through. And I think, for me and, and the ice bath the first time after hitting that kind of two minute mark, and I knew you Hit that zone, then after that, the next one wasn't nearly as hard because my body and my mind knew that that was coming.

That very first time, you don't know, and you just feel like that's never gonna come. But I, I feel like as a, as a firefighter, we're always trying to bring control to chaos, right? Like that's, that's the job description. And being able to do that within ourselves. Just like you guys said the chaos of, of home life, and being able to let some of these things translate over into, doing hard things.

But, I think building up that resiliency and telling yourself, and if, I just feel like if we can look at some of those aspects with relationships the same way we approach an ice bath. Wouldn't it be great if, and speaking hopefully to my future self, wouldn't it be great if, 45 seconds after I told my kid, no, I'm done.

I'm too tired to go do that with you. I changed my mind and went back out. Hey, you know what? That was dumb. I do want to be out here and I want to do this with you rather than let that decision, but for now that only applies to ice baths for me. But that's something, one of those things I want to work on and get better at is, is that even if initially maybe you're not living life the way you want or whatever, it only takes that one, one decision to turn that around and try again.

[00:59:20] Tyler Scriver: Yes, ma'am.

[00:59:21] Neal Gibbons: Progress, not perfection.

[00:59:22] Brent Harding: There we go. I know that there's an effort to try to get ice baths in every station. Hopefully that's going to happen soon. But certainly come up to 120. We're getting, we're going to keep on keeping on.

Get, making that better and better. If anybody needs that please reach out. Of course, these are the experts here, so they're happy to help. We appreciate you into doing it, and yeah, we'll catch you on the next one. Thanks, guys.

[00:59:43] Neal Gibbons: Thank you.