When Passion Meets Exhaustion: Setting Boundaries

TRANSCRIPT

Brent: [00:00:00] So here we're back for another episode of our Firefighter Support podcast. I'm super excited to have Battalion Chief John Cox with us today, and returning for another cameo I. Tyler Scriber, thank you both for being here and for coming, participating and being with us. Chief, why don't you give us a little background on you and tell us before we get into our topic today, just tell us a little bit about your career and kind of how you got started and how you've just taken over every role and just worked your all the way up to Battalion Chief.

John: Well, I never dreamed to being a firefighter. I, I had some experiences in the back country with horses where we had some accidents and I didn't know what to do, didn't know how to render medical aid, so. I just had to wing it and I actually had a doctor tell me, oh, you're the moron that helped these guys.

Yep, that's me. I'm that moron. [00:01:00] And it just left me wanting to know more about the medical field and, and at least know some first aid. But once I got involved in the EMT basic class just sucked me in. I started off as a volunteer in North Logan Fire Department in Northern Utah. And then. You know, fell in love with it and went through all the fire programs.

Love technical rescue, love working with ropes. I've now been at Logan Fire 22 years, worked my way up from the EMT Basic to an advanced EMT, which is the intermediate EMT back then to a paramedic, captain, engineer, then captain, then now battalion chief over a shift. And I love it. I never wanna do anything else.

You know, I've had a lot of other experience in my life with computers. I got involved early in computers and in the internet, which, well, I think we'll talk about a little bit later here. I.

Brent: Tell us throughout the 22 years [00:02:00] and all the different roles you've had. 'cause you know a lot of those roles aren't easy to come by.

It's not like you just exist in place for so long and you get handed promotions like it's a ton of work to test, promote, and interview, and you're often having to do that several times for several years before you get some of those positions. What would you attribute to you not getting like burned out from.

The process over the last 22 years, being able to keep the drive, keep the ambition, and continue con, not only contributing to the fire department, but also growing in your own role and, and getting to where you're today.

John: Well, I think there's a few things, and I think it's a little different for everybody.

I think you have to find the thing that works for you and through these podcasts, through for me, for through books, through just talking to people. They share with you the ways that they deal with it, and it's changed throughout my career. I think early on. I carried a pager everywhere. I wanted to hear every call.

I loved [00:03:00] it. And people would say, well, that's just gonna burn you out, and I don't think so. I think it kept me excited. It was really fun. Later on, it became change. I needed change. I needed to go to a different station. I needed a different captain. I needed to promote, I needed to go. Challenged myself by taking classes.

When I started getting stagnant, I started staying in the same place. Really started. That's when I started thinking, man, what if maybe I should do something else? Maybe I should go to another department. Um, you know, I started seeing more of the, I. The all the little things that we can find that are not great.

You know, they're a little rough at the fire station. It's not always perfect. It's a very stressful job. But I think that change was really important for me. I've always had a good family backup and people that supported me. My wife is one that likes to hear the stories at the fire station, so I think that's really been important for me.

I can go home and tell her what's happened. In fact, she gets a little bit upset if I don't, and she hears [00:04:00] about it later. So that helped a ton. And then I've learned over the years, kind of my limitations. I've learned about myself and my boundaries and the expectations I have for myself and for others.

And I've learned to do things for myself. And what I mean by that is I've learned to do things because I want to do them and because it's my own pride and it's my own reasons. So for instance, I remember getting kind of upset about patients who would call us over and over. They wanted you to take care of them, but they wouldn't take care of themselves and they just, you almost felt like they weren't worthy of your care, that they weren't deserving of what you provided.

And how do you. Manage a career 20, 30 years and feel like. These people aren't deserving of my care. You can't, that's not a way you should think as a firefighter, as a paramedic, and I realized that no matter who the [00:05:00] person was, no matter whether I thought they were abusing the system or using government aid or whatever, I had to render their care the best way I could for me, because of my own reasons, because I was a really good paramedic, and that's the care I was gonna give to people every single time.

That I was gonna be the guy that found the problem every single time that I would do all the work that I needed, do it right every single time. And I didn't start off that way. I got better at it. And usually the reason I worked at it and became better at, 'cause I screwed it up, you know? So it's one of those things that I think you have to look at yourself and want to constantly be better.

And it's one of the hardest things at the fire station because it weighs on you really heavy. All the time. But it's the neatest thing too. It's what really motivates me is I don't feel this huge, obnoxious, overwhelming weight. I can feel enough of it to be better, but [00:06:00] then let it drive me forward and let it let it be fun.

And I really do feel like it's, it's fun to improve a little bit each day. And then you have to let go of the old, you know, as I became an engineer, I was no longer as much of a medic, and as I became a captain, I was no longer an engineer. Or a medic. And so those skills have left, you know, in some ways, and that's hard, but you gain new ones and you try to be the best and you try to be inspired.

I really am inspired by the younger generation. I think the energy that I get comes from being able to lead people who are so energetic and they're so driven and they just want to do the best job they possibly can. And that keeps me going. It's pretty neat.

Brent: I, I love everything you shared and it kind of has an overarching theme of something I heard you say a long time ago.

I remember you telling me change is as good as rest. Mm-hmm. And it just seems like that's the more I've thought about that. That's so true. When you change [00:07:00] roles from medic to engineer, you get this kind of new life. It's like waking up and first thing in the morning you're ready to go. But then also applying that to sometimes a change in attitude.

You know, or a change in definitely skillset or a change in, it's not, not just your circumstance or environment, but when you're willing to self-improve and change, you're always trying to change something. Um, I think that's, yeah, a good way to rest. And, and you know, in this scenario, rest is the opposite of burnout, right?

Mm-hmm. Um, I want to circle over to to Tyler for a minute 'cause I don't know if we've ever talked about. Your story a lot with coming from the corporate world for 15 years and then having your own change dramatically to a full-time fire, taking a little bit of a pay cut. Yeah. We know firefighters are right up there, but, uh, maybe, um, you know, and kind of going off some of the things chief said, uh.

Tell us kind of how that change affected you and what your life was like pre and [00:08:00] post that big change.

Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I worked for a plasma center for 15 years. I started out like a very basic entry level position, and I ended up, I. Becoming the manager of the entire building. Something that kind of kept me driven in both worlds At the same time, I was doing that, I was also volunteering with North Logan.

I had a good mentor. His name is Dr. William Evans. I was asking him one day, how do you do it for so long? He's very successful. Patients like him and I, I'm just like, how do you have the energy? And he's like, I treat every patient like for whatever reason that they have, this is. The worst thing in the world that can happen for 'em.

And it's my job to help them. And the harder I try, the better I get and the more fulfillment I get when I try. So I, I kind of used that in the corporate world where I started out and the best I could do was like make a single [00:09:00] donor's day better by talking to 'em or being a really good phlebotomist to moving into leadership positions.

And then. It it similar to what Chief Cox says, your skills change. And so I'm not dealing with those donors every single time. Now I'm dealing with my fellow coworkers, my employees, and when they bring me a problem, this is a big problem and I need to fix it, whether it's a scheduling issue or problems at home or you know, that kind of stuff.

So I use that to help. Kind of drive me and keep me engaged for as long as I could. The last couple years that I was at the plasma center, it was interesting. I learned a lot. It was really hard, but I remember I had this very distinct moment in my life where I was like, I. I can't do this for the rest of my life.

I gotta find something that I can do. 'cause I'd been there for 15 years and the thought for doing it for another 15 years was [00:10:00] just like insurmountable. And actually I was working, Logan City just started a firefighting program and I was part of that. Uh, I was talking to my wife one day. I was like, Hey, man, like, you know, I, I would go to work at the plasma center at four or five o'clock in the morning and I would get done at two, and then I would go and I would spend.

Eight, 10 hours at the fire department, and my wife would be there. I would get home from work and I would talk to her, and then I would come home at like two or three o'clock in the morning from the fire department. And she's like, I just want you to know, like I was talking her ear off and she's like, okay, you, you gotta go to bed.

Like you gotta go to bed. I gotta go to bed. But she's like, I want you to think about something. Think about how you were when you got off of work. From the plasma center and how you felt and think about how you feel now. You know, it's, and how you're talking to me, you're a completely different person.

And that was [00:11:00] probably the first little seed in my brain that started to grow. I was like, huh, wow. You know, like there is a difference. Like I do feel more fulfilled and, you know, it, it maybe that it was new, but it, uh, there's something. It's drawing me towards it, and it wasn't anything new. Like I said, I was volunteering with North Logan.

I did that for 12 years or so before the part-time thing happened. But you know, it stuff happened and I ended up leaving that. Facility manager, that center manager position for a base level firefighter, A EMT. I was making about a third of what I was as a center manager, and no, my, again, I was talking to my wife and I was like, Hey, I think I gotta do this.

She's like, duh, do it. I was like, okay, that, that all sounds good. But let's, let's run the numbers here. And she's like, it doesn't matter. We'll make it work, you know, we'll, we'll figure it out. So [00:12:00]with her support, we, we did it and we figured it out, and it has been amazing. It has been awesome. It's, it's a new adventure every single day.

I like being one-on-one with the patients. Again, it takes me back to the very base level position at the plasma center when I was just hanging out with, you know, we were screening 50 donors in eight hours and I could talk to 'em and get to know 'em and, you know, fix these certain things or you know, whatever.

But yeah, starting from the bottom we're, you know, in the process of working our way up and it's, it's been pretty fun. Very challenging, but very fun. Yeah.

Brent: Well, and I was just gonna bring that up because Chief Cox mentioned carrying the weight. Right. And so the weight didn't necessarily, and you know, as somebody that hasn't experience lifting some weight, you know, there's the weight of the plasma center versus the weight of the fire department.

You know, on paper. Not financially, [00:13:00] but just time-wise and effort and energy wasn't probably that different. Like they're long hours, they're hard hours, lots of things stressful. So what um, would, I guess, how would you put that in? I. Why one weight was easier to bear than another, because, and, and I'll point out even now in the middle of me school, right, the weight hasn't gotten any lighter.

Like you're in the, you're in the thickest part of starting out the career all over again, and it's a pretty heavy. Pretty heavy weight right now. Yeah. It seems like the drive hasn't slowed down at all.

Tyler: For sure. I think actually it came from advice that I, or something that I heard from Chief Cox over here.

We were here at the studio. We had just finished our mock entry level testing that we put together, and the three of us were talking and he said, you know, being a firefighter, it's not a job. It's a calling. And that really, I mean, I could feel that. And now [00:14:00] that. I'm in that role, still feel that it's a calling.

It's not just something that I do, you know, it's this commitment. You know, we make an oath to the citizens that we protect, and I really feel that oath. I want to be the best medic that I possibly can, the best firefighter, because that's what I want for my family, is our organization showing up for them.

So the weight changes. I mean, yeah. When I was a center manager, of course I was, I was salary and it was 24 7. If there was a problem, it, it came back to me. It doesn't matter if I was on vacation, it doesn't matter if my wife was having a baby. If there was an issue and they couldn't figure it out, it came back to me and so I got used to having that feeling of always being, always being on, always being.

And not in charge, but always being ready, mission ready, always being just at, at, at whatever beck and call. Whether I went in and [00:15:00] I worked for 12 hours that day, and then somebody called in and the closer called in and I had to go back to work and I had to spend another four or five hours there. I, I just got used to this feeling of always working.

It was funny, I was talking to someone the other day and they're like, how much money do you actually make? And I was like. I don't know enough. I've budgeted my life appropriately and I just don't pay attention to it. It's not like, you know, I'm counting down the hours and I have my hourly wage figured out and all this stuff.

It's just, it's just something that I'm used to doing because that's what I did when I was a salary employee. And it doesn't, it doesn't really change a whole lot. And so the, the weight is different. But it's, it's way more enjoyable instead of laying in bed thinking about, oh man, I have half a million dollars worth of product in a freezer.

And if the, if the freezer changes by five degrees, like that's the [00:16:00] difference between, um, that being worth half a million dollars and that being worth a hundred thousand dollars. And, you know, that kind of stress there versus like laying at night, laying in bed at night and thinking like. Oh man, I hope that something awesome happens and they need someone to come and fill in at a station or like that excitement of carrying that pager around, waiting for those calls, missing out on those awesome experiences that you get to go help people in the worst times of their life.

Brent: Yeah. Kind of takes me back to our very first podcast we did where we talked about moving weight with purpose. And just by thinking about the muscles you're using as you're pushing the bar, like you are way more effective and you can move the weight faster. And it kind of, I think the same thing applies, right?

Like the weight, you can lift heavy things in either of those scenarios, but man, when there's purpose behind it, you feel motivated, you feel like progress, and I think that's pretty awesome. [00:17:00] Um, we've, in, in both of your stories, you kind of mentioned a lot of, um. It seems like there's a lot of planning, but also, um, and a lot of budgeting and, and also with time.

You know, I think that's an important part and kind of what I wanted to address a lot today is 'cause I think with the job of working for a fire department, you have that passion and then you just feel this fire to help. Like, I want to help this department be the best department that's ever existed. And so sometimes that ambition comes across and taking on.

Every extra project you can to help, you know, with website stuff or fitness stuff or whatever. You're just always given everything, you got all skill sets, you know, all hands on deck to try to push the department forward. Uh, but I think over time that's not really a sustainable. Drive or if you're not doing it with the right purpose, right?

Like if you're doing extra things to get the promotion, like that's a recipe for burnout [00:18:00] because if you don't get the promotion or once you get tired of the promotion, you know, all that extra work you did feels like unappreciated. So having the right purpose behind is important, but what have, what have you guys found with all like, and, and maybe we can start with you chief, is, 'cause I know with your skills with websites and computers.

And especially in a fire department, and over the last 22 years where a lot of people probably didn't know much about computers, you probably got asked to do a ton of stuff that necessarily wasn't in your job description as a firefighter. And so how did you manage that? How did you not get burned out by it?

And kinda what are some things you've learned as far as you mentioned earlier too, it's about setting those boundaries and how to budget your time and energy

John: Well. You see me sitting here now, but the reality is I did get burned out. You know, I did get bitter over it, and I think in your career you should expect that.

I do think that at some point, the disappointment of not [00:19:00] getting promoted, we brought that up after you've been here a little while, and then the newness, the excitement of getting to do this job kind of wears off a little bit, seems mundane. You need to renew that, first of all, but. It's gonna weigh on you a little bit and it's going to you, you maybe that money that you gave up, you start to think about.

And the sacrifice that you made, I mean, we all make it. Whether you're going to paramedic school, you're advancing in your career, you make these sacrifices, and if you're making them for the department. I think you're gonna be disappointed. I do. I think you need to make 'em for yourself and, and you do it.

I mean, I spent a ton of time going through classes in schools, and once I started doing it for myself, I started doing it for my own pride, for my own knowledge to be able to lead my team to keep 'em safe. It was very satisfying and it, it never, I never feel bad about it. I never feel like the department doesn't appreciate it because I never did it for them in the first [00:20:00] place.

But yeah, I had that a really unique skill, which may sound a little weird now because we're. You know, this was 20 years ago. Nobody knew anything about computers. Like we'd have wireless anywhere, right? There was no wireless at the fire station. There was barely cabled cap five ethernet connections. The computer systems took a lot more effort and a lot more maintenance than they do now.

I was one of two guys when I started that knew anything about it. I took over the website, started doing the fire department's website. I tore an ACL and a knee playing basketball off duty because I had skills in building websites. They actually sent me over the city, I believe the chiefs. Exact words were prostituted me to the IT department or something like that.

It was pretty funny, but I had a unique set of skills, I guess. So they sent me over there, which was a crazy neat opportunity for me. Really, you know, it actually brought about a whole nother career path for me. Some side money, some, you know, if I ever [00:21:00] got hurt, I knew I could fall back on that. So it was a really neat opportunity.

But in doing that, I gained a lot of responsibilities to the fire station. I had these ends with the network, with the servers, with every computer that went into these mobile data computers that we put in every one of our engines and our rescues. And I actually programmed some dispatching software, well really kind of a display.

So now we use Spillman and they have a display that we put up at the stations that show every call we built that. From scratch and, and put it up on the board and, and we could see every call that would go out, which was really neat. And we did it in a way that was free for everybody that used it in the entire county.

Had a whole login system. I mean, it was, it was pretty complex. Took a lot of time. And anyway, you get involved in all these things, right? It's really easy. And you get a little bit of mission creep, you know, you start taking on a little bit more and more. And pretty soon we had developed all these [00:22:00] systems, every cardiac monitor, every modem that they connected to, to send in our heart rhythms, everything to do with computers or technology.

I ran at the fire station and for a while the chief at the time, even once I was done billing the website, I had gotten. Back to full duty. He kept me. He would pay me to help do things at the fire station. Of course, I was still maintaining the city's website. They were paying me time and a half to do that.

It was pretty sweet. I knew it would end at some point, and then we changed chiefs. The new chief said, I don't need all that, and fair enough, like I didn't expect anything. I don't need, I'm not gonna pay that overtime. And we don't need that. Everything's running really well. Which, if you know anything about technology, that's 'cause you put a lot of time into it to keep it running well and you know, we'll just, you can just stop doing that stuff.

Well, it doesn't really work like that. So I didn't have the time to spend in off-duty doing it. So I would spend it on duty. And by doing that, I wouldn't work out. I wasn't studying if I wasn't on a [00:23:00]call or doing a report, I was working on loading well, and all these programs were loaded actually on the devices, so you had to go around to every device and load a program.

Now we just log into 'em over the internet, right? Software as a service. But back then you had to load a client on every single computer for all these different programs that we use. So it was just a ton of time, and you're just maintaining all this. You're using these skills that you spent thousands of hours and thousands of dollars learning, and I.

Did I get paid any more for it? No. While guys were out watching tv, I was working, maintaining what we called the firecat of this display up on the wall. I was maintaining the MDCs and all the cardiac monitors because that knowledge, the admin staff would go to a meeting that come out, Hey, I've been assigned to build a two year calendar for training, but I don't know anything about Excel.

Can you show me how to do this? Can you help me set it up? Hey, I need to share all these files to so and so. Can you come help me do that? And so. You know, I got to where I [00:24:00] felt like I like, well I'm doing admin's job. You know what I mean? Like you, in your mind, here's these thoughts that, and it kind of culminated one day when we were talking about the cardiac monitors.

They needed an upgrade and it was gonna be a big one. So it was gonna change how the functionality of the monitor worked, some of the menus that you went through. So he couldn't just. Plop it in there and let everybody figure it out on a cardiac patient one day. You know, we needed to go train on it and then we needed to roll it out.

So the guys who were in the admin staff asked me to come to the meeting, uh, an EMS committee meeting, teach them how to use what was gonna change, everything that happened. Well, this wasn't my job. I wasn't in charge of the cardiac monitors besides just the technology to make 'em work. But the guy that.

Didn't know how to explain it, didn't know what had happened. And I did. So he asked me to come. Well, I showed up the next morning for the meeting and nobody was there, thought I was in the wrong place, thought I was, you [00:25:00] know, what's going on? Weren't we having a meeting here? And the secretary at the time said, oh, they, it got canceled.

And it just. Irritated me. You know, I was mad. I was super mad. And you know, I called one of the guys that said that was on the committee and I said, Hey, what's up? You know this got canceled. Yeah, it got canceled. Well, how come you didn't call me and tell me like, I made a special trip in, I'm not even supposed to, this isn't even my job.

Why didn't you tell me and you think, oh, I'm sorry. And I was obviously very upset. Um, he said something to the chief at the time who was supposed to be at the meeting as well. Uh, so when I showed up for work the next day. Chief was waiting for me. It was like, Hey, let's go for a ride. So we hopped in his truck and we went for this ride and he says, you know, I just wanted to explain like I had this really important meeting and my time's really valuable and that's why we had to cancel this meeting.

And I said, well, I get it. Your time's valuable. My problem [00:26:00] is mine's not worth shit. And that's how I said it to him. And I. He was, and I don't know if you have to edit that off the podcast at this point, but No, you're a chief. You can say whatever you want. He said that, that's what I said to him. And he literally is like, I don't think I like the way you said that.

And I was to the point where I'm like, I don't care what you think. I don't care if you know we're gonna have it out right here and right now because I'm done. You know, I'm in here doing your admin's job and you guys don't have the respect to call me and tell me this is canceled and. You know, I was, you know, I think that that was a valid reason to be irritated.

There were so many other things that I was doing that I would put together a whole program to check trucks. And we use a system now called PS Tracks and, and it's just so well organized. You can do it on your phone. Well, I built that. I programmed that over 10 years ago, and the battalion chiefs at the time wouldn't bother to learn it, right?

I put this whole system [00:27:00] together. They wouldn't bother to learn it. Guess who asked me to do that? Nobody. Nobody did. You know I saw a problem. I wanted to fix the problem. Nobody asked me to do that. I was irritated when they didn't care. Nobody asked me to put all my time aside and just work on the computers to the detriment of everything.

I just did it. You do it because you love it. The stuff that we talked about, how much we're driven, it's so wonderful. It really is. It's the neatest thing ever. I am so glad for 22 years I've done something that I've never once, never one day have I ever said, I don't, I don't want to go to work. You know, there's the days like I'd maybe rather be doing this, but like, never once did I not want to go to work, and here I am now like.

Just bitter right about it. And what I came to realize was it's my own fault. And I think about if you guys, you guys read Extreme Ownership, Jocko Willicks, so pretty macho, [00:28:00] you know, pretty pretty Navy Seal. But you know, they talk about owning stuff and I said, if you get shot in the head, it's your own fault.

I'm like, how is that your own fault, man? Well, you shouldn't have put your head there, you know? And it's. That's a little over the top, super macho. But it really is the case. Like if you, if I got abused, my time got abused, that was my fault. It really was like, I could have said no at any time. I could have said, I'm willing to do this much right, but I can't do everything.

I didn't, I just let myself get abused. I really did. And you know, I put my, my heart and soul into these projects, ex with the expectation that people were just gonna. I mean, I had some really good successes, right? Firecat and, and the software that everybody used and loved, and now I'm trying to build another system like that.

And then when nobody cared, it was devastating. But then I had to think like, but nobody asked me to do it. You know, it goes back to, I do [00:29:00] it for me. If I do those things, I'd go the extra mile. I take on an extra assignment. It's for me, and I found that I have to do that to be happy at the fire station. I have to assume more responsibility.

I have to be part of something extra. You know, if it's this podcast supporting your brother, sharing your stories, if it's really getting into technical rescue or the honor guard, you know, and going and showing up at scouting events and funerals and doing those things, do it because you love it and do it because you want to for your own reasons.

And that's, you won't go wrong. And you just have to set those boundaries of what you're willing to do, what you're not willing to do. And that's up to you. And I'll be honest, if you feel bitter, it's your own fault. I remember promoting to captain here, I'm with my best friends, I. And I'm trying to kick their butts.

You know, I remember hoping they would try too, that they would come after me and do the best job that we could and we would study together and [00:30:00] learn together. And it was kinda like made the best man win. And at the end of the day it hurts. Like there's no. It's that emotion that you feel and you should and you will, and know that, right?

But know that it's okay to feel bad for a little while. Let the logic seep in and be like, you know, this is how it works. And where did I lack? What am I gonna do different next time? Because we've all been there, you know, I was number one on a captain's list. I got skipped for the number two guy who is my best friend.

I called him up, I said, Hey, I just wanna congratulate you. And he's like, I didn't want to answer the phone. I mean, I was like my best friend, you know, like somebody I've been in the fire service with for 20 years and he's like, I didn't want to answer the phone. Like, well, it's okay man. I'm gonna feel bad for a little while.

I had to question like, why would I get skipped looking back on it? And you'll never have this perspective upfront. So you just kind of gotta know. I think that's why you gotta listen to these stories and just say, it'll be for my [00:31:00] good. And I look back on that. And it was the best thing. You know, I had to look inside myself.

I learned a ton. I just wanted to be okay with it. Right? It's okay, it's okay, it's fine. And I realized it's not okay and it wasn't. And that's okay to feel those emotions. They teach you, they tell you, you know, they make you, they make you work. And that's how you should, you should direct them. But at the same time, it's okay to feel 'em.

It's just not okay to entertain them forever. And you can feel bad for a minute and you probably should. If you didn't, you probably didn't care. But I found that those, you know, setting those boundaries of like, Hey, I'm gonna take this test and, and know that if I get beat. I'm gonna be back next time. You know, like upfront.

I know it's gonna suck and I know, but I'm not gonna get mad, I'm not gonna be upset that we, I'm just gonna move on with it and, and do my best for the next go. You just have [00:32:00] to realize that this whole thing is bigger than me. But I think if you kind of go in there and say, here's what I'm willing to give, right?

And it's so much. People give so much, but that's the limit. That's where I'm, that's kind of the end of my time. This is what I can give to you, and then do it and go the extra mile and do all those things. But you can't write a blank check. The fire department's a black hole of time and energy. It will suck.

Anything you leave open, right? It will take anything and everything that you have, if you let it, and that's how you make it 20 years, that's how you make it 30 years, is you just say, here's what I'm willing to give and here's what I'm willing to do. And pace yourself doing it.

Tyler: Yeah.

John: You know, it's

Tyler: interesting, it's coming to to fire and going through a promotional program or the process is you really are competing with your best friends in the corporate world.

There were several times that I got passed [00:33:00] up for a position. I remember the first time I was an operation supervisor, he, that would probably be like almost like a captain, you know? Mm-hmm. I have my crew, I have the, you know, I'm in charge of these things, and then. The assistant manager position's about to open up and that that would probably be closer to a battalion chief or even, or even like an assistant chief.

I was the most senior employee that was there, like I was doing everything. There were other operation supervisors that didn't have access to their employee's time cards, but I had to do it because. Of how our center was. You know, the position opens and I apply for it, and I have all of my coworkers.

They're like, oh yeah, you're, it's in the bag, man. You got this. Like, we, we, we, we believe in you. Whatever. I didn't even get an interview and they ended up promoting this guy and I was hurt and it wasn't my best friend, you know? Mm-hmm. It was just some little [00:34:00] puke. That I had to train, you know? And then when he got promoted, I had to train him how to do what I was doing.

And that hurt. And that caused a big, a big morale injury for myself. Like I was very devoted into doing all these little special things and doing all that kind of stuff. And then it was like, this is, this is it. This is my time. Didn't even get an interview and I got the worst attitude about it. This guy's coming to me and I'm supposed to train him, and I just like.

Screw you buddy. That's what I had to do and it took me eight years to do it. So good luck. He goes on and he does really well and it sucked. 'cause I had to take some of that humble pie and look and say, you know what? He is better than me and here are all the reasons why he's better than me. He and I had a conversation.

I had to apologize. Look man, I was a total jerk to you. I could have made your life so much easier, but I was hurt and. I, I, I want to do better. He and [00:35:00] I, we had a pretty good partnership. He goes on, he leaves, he becomes a center manager. I get promoted to the assistant manager. Uh, he, as he was about to leave, he's like, Hey, I just want you to know something I.

Because when the, the, I was up for that position again. He's like, you have a hurdle. You have this, this huge mountain that you have to get over. And I was like, why? He's like, the way you reacted when you didn't get the promotion. Everybody's gonna remember that. Everybody remembers how you act when you don't get a promotion.

When you get a promotion, you're supposed to be happy, right? Mm-hmm. Nobody's gonna be like, oh man, he was just the happiest person. It's like, oh, he didn't get a promotion and he had a bad attitude. It's like, you're gonna have to overcome that in order to get promoted. So I had to work really hard. And it wasn't like the, the hard work that I was used to, like putting in extra hours and doing these things, like I had to improve on my relationship with the center [00:36:00] manager at the time.

I had to improve on things that I wasn't, that I wasn't super good at, so that people could see that like I was ready for this permission, this promotion. Came around, I got promoted. I was the assistant manager for a long time. Similar situations center, the center manager leaves. I am the most tenured employee at that, at that center, coming up to be a, a, a center manager.

I actually got a, an interview this time. Didn't get the center manager position, the guy that they brought in. And the nice thing was, is what I learned from the first time. I just applied it right from the get go. And he and I, we hit it off and it was hard, but within a couple weeks I realized, yeah, this guy is better than me.

And instead of being like, Hey, screw you buddy, like hopefully you figure this out, he made me better. And that was the only reason, those two gentlemen and me having to be humble. And be [00:37:00]uncomfortable, made it so that I could become the center manager. So now in the fire world where I'm competing with my best friends, when Wallace gets promoted, like, awesome, that is awesome.

The man worked his butt off. He and I spent a lot of time together training and he did a great job and. He, you know, you always want to get that promotion, but seeing someone else succeed and, and here in the fire is awesome. And I'm sure it'll come to a point where it'll be a similar situation where, you know, maybe it's Brent and I and we're number one and number two, he's number one.

Obviously I would be number two for an engineer position, but I was just gonna be so excited for him when he gets promoted.

John: And if you, the interesting thing is if you get that bad attitude after you didn't get a promotion. Then it validates their decision 110%. Right. You didn't deserve that position. You weren't the right person for that.

There's

Brent: nothing worse than admin being right. Yeah, I know dude. Don't let it happen.

John: [00:38:00] Don't let it happen. No, it, it is, it's, it's interesting and it's funny 'cause you can know that in your brain too, but it feels different and I think sometimes you have to look at it and say. This is what it feels like. You know, this is when they talk about the disappointment when you're listening to this podcast and you think, oh yeah, that didn't get the promotion.

That's gotta be disappointing. It is, but you know what? It's different when you're in the middle of it. And this is like, you have to look at yourself and say, dude, this is what it feels like. This is, this is what it's like. I remember my daughter, she loves those sayings, those little rah rah ri memes that are like, ah, get up when you get ball down and.

And then, you know, she had some hard times and I was like, remember those memes that you post all over social media? This, this is what it feels like. Like this is what it's like when you're in the middle of it. And, and so I think you have to realize where you're at. And promotion seems so far away and they come so fast.

I mean, it, [00:39:00] it is no time at all. And it's easy to say that looking back, you know, and that's why I guess we talk about this is, is. One day you're gonna say, I remember that podcast. I remember those guys talking about it. And I guess this is what it feels like, because you're gonna have these points. You're gonna wonder why you're at the fire station still.

You're not

Brent: human if you don't feel disappointed. Right? Yeah, for sure. Like no one walks out of that ever feeling like, oh man, I'm sure glad I didn't get that. I didn't want it anyway. But I think you said a really important thing of, and that's part of the boundary that you said is the boundary is in the way you think.

Now allowing yourself to process those feelings. Yeah. Uh, and that's one of the huge mental benefits of ice baths, is you force your brain to endure something that's not comfortable, right? Rather than managing your feelings and, oh, I'm feeling unhappy. I gotta feel happy right now. What do I gotta do? It's, no, you gonna sit in this ice bath for five or six minutes.

And you force yourself to process [00:40:00] through that uncomfortableness and give yourself that time to do it. Managing your feelings looks like stepping into the ice bath and getting right back out. Right. But I think, you know, with your story, with the being number one on the captain spot and then, but telling your buddy, it's like, Hey, of course I'm disappointed, you know, but that's okay.

Like I've given myself that room to be disappointed. I'm gonna. Think about it, and I think we learned this in part of the peer support training, is the BLT mayo, right? The moment you allow that feeling of disappointment to change your actions, that now I'm gonna come to work grumpier, or now I'm, when I get there, I'm gonna screw these guys.

They can figure it out on their own. I've put in my time, you know? Or I'm not gonna get the rescue ready for the next oncoming crew anymore, or whatever, right? Like if you start allowing those, well, that's the boundary. You've now crossed the boundary. Right. And so allowing yourself to process it, but then setting that mental boundary of, yeah, I'll allow myself to feel this way, but then [00:41:00] sending a behavioral boundary of, but I'm not gonna allow it to change the way I interact with my crew or interact with my friend that I just tested against.

You know? And I think that's a really admirable thing when you can. Keep to those boundaries and then how healthy it is too for a long career to have those. One thing we can just kind of end on is communicating boundaries. 'cause I think going through it with yourself, and I love the theme that we've kind of come to today, really doing it for yourself that, you know, 'cause I think if you cross that boundary of, oh, I'm doing this for their department again, that's a time bomb waiting to go off.

Right? Eventually you're gonna feel unappreciated by the department. Or the department has no idea what you're actually doing, and you're doing all this extra stuff and no one knows, and then you blow up one day because no one's carrying around on their shoulders around the station praising your name.

But so how do you, and especially with you, are over a whole shift now. So what are some keys for both of you and [00:42:00] communicating your boundaries to others in a way that's not. Selfish like, 'cause if I came into your office and said, well Chief, I'm only going to do these things 'cause these are my boundaries.

There's that. Versus like, no, I just want to be helpful. But at the same time, you know, here's what I got going on, my four off. But you know, I'm all in. If you ask me to do something, I'm in. And so what, what would you put as a. And going through it yourself and now being in the, on the other side of the desk or the, Hey, let's go for a drive chat.

You're in the steering wheel now. What would be a better way to communicate boundaries to both a supervisor, but maybe also your crew?

John: That's a good question. I really like that. And people can ask you to do anything, right? I mean, as a battalion chief, people ask me stuff that all the time, you know, from, Hey, this is a little worn.

Instead of fixing it, let's replace it or ask about time off. And they want something outside of the boundaries of your [00:43:00] protocols or SOPs or something like that. What we normally do, and I think the first thing is, is just sticking as close to those rules that you already have as possible and that it's funny 'cause you feel like those rules and we call 'em boundaries and, and maybe expectations is another good word.

I think that. Sticking to those and, and, and being consistent, being consistent with them, communicates that that's the way it's gonna be, and you don't have to answer. The same question or make the same decision over and over and over. You just stick to the rule, right? And so you try to be super consistent.

It's funny that works with firefighters, works with your kids, you know, I mean, you're just consistent. I think that's a great way of communicating it. I think, you know, it's interesting. You gotta know what they are first. You gotta know what your boundaries are and what you want. And that's super important.

You know, kind of what are your limitations? How much time do you wanna spend? But I think. [00:44:00] I think some of it's just really not vocal. Like, for example, think about somebody on your shift who you're not gonna tell the dirty jokes around. Right. You're, do firemen

Brent: do that?

John: No. Well, we know, and I don't know, sea shift, sea shift guys, you know, they've, they've set those boundaries, right?

Do they, do they speak 'em out loud? I think a lot of times they don't. You still know what they are and they, they're communicated. So you kind of have to know what your standards, what your rules are, what you're willing to do, how much time you're willing to give, what kind of things you're not willing to compromise on.

I mean, and it goes both ways. I mean, I, you know, it was interesting. We just had this discussion about time off, and there's guys that try to get time off for every little thing that happens in their life, you know? And, and then what, how many of those. Can you take off and, and not really affect your [00:45:00] crew?

'cause every time you take some time off, somebody else can't take it off. And a, anytime you take it off, you affect other person. They have to go up to another station, they have to move around. You've gotta, I mean, it may be minor, but we all need time off and we all need to do it. So what's, you know, what, what?

Kids events are you willing to, to miss? Because you can't take everyone off. Like, which ones are you gonna make sure that you go to and that you, you know, maybe you go to all the home games, but the way games you just, you know, it's not gonna work out. What are those time commitments? Um, the time one, I think we commit and, and cause herself so much pain in committing.

To, to, to do something in the future. So like if you, somebody asks you to do something in three months, hey, come be on this podcast on this day, in three months. You're like, ah, sweet, no problem. Let's do it. Because you, you like the idea. You in three months, you have nothing planned yet. You know, I mean, it's pretty easy to fit in the old schedule.

And one of the best pieces of advice [00:46:00] I've heard and that I try to use is like, if it was to be tomorrow. Yeah, would you still commit to it? If this was tomorrow, would you commit to it? And if it's yes, then do it. The other thing I would say communicate to people is that if it's, if it's like a yeah or a yes, don't do it.

If it's a hell yeah, then do it. You know? If it's like that is something that I want to do, then. And, and you know, again, you're doing it for you. You're not gonna be bitter 'cause it takes you that time and that effort and the commitment that is needed then, then do it and do it well. You know, look at the guys putting together this peer support team, and I just think the time and effort that's gone into it, it comes from their own drive.

And that's exciting. You're willing to put in so much work when you believe in something you love something. It doesn't feel like work. And so I would say do the things, you know, do those things that, um, you know, offer those special [00:47:00] skills that you have. I look at you two guys and you can almost to a head name the special talents that each person on our A department has and what they contribute.

If you focus on those things, you're way more effective, you're way more happy, and you get more done just because of the energy that you bring. So those are the. Recommendations I'd give. I think if you're having issues with this, you know, understand how it works. Think about spending energy and not time.

'cause especially Americans, they love their time. Like if you work long, that means you worked hard, right? If you spend a lot of time on it, you weren't hard. When really, you're probably wasting a ton of time, but there's a book called The Power of Full Engagement. It's probably one of my favorites. It's not a well-known book.

It's not one of these ones that you've probably heard a million times, but it talks about spending energy and not time, and these little things that you can do throughout the day that are unique to you and you have to figure it out, that recharge you. So [00:48:00] it's almost like you're a battery and you've gotta recharge.

And then your energy expenditure, you try to limit it, right? You try to. To make it less by making things, taking out friction of your life, taking out wasted time, going in when you work and work hard, then be done. You know that kind of a concept. And they give a ton of examples, some that'll make you probably a little uncomfortable 'cause you think, man, that's guys super successful and then they just.

They're, they're kind of dropping. They're gonna get fired, you know, and they work with them to, to see what their problem is. And it's not a lack of ambition or, or they're not lazy. Um, but it is like you have to recharge. You can't just keep giving and giving and giving and it's amazing. What'll happen is you'll get more out of it.

Brent: It's almost

John: like

Brent: energy. You could treat the same way as debt. Right? Like you keep kicking that can down the road. Mm-hmm. Temping those responsibilities. 'cause it's three months. I'll figure it out. I'll figure it [00:49:00] out, I'll figure it out. And then eventually that's gonna catch up and it's all gonna collapse and you just can't keep taking on debt and taking on debt.

Right. Until that's gonna become a real problem. And I think the same thing can be applied to energy. You keep taking on all these tasks, you keep committing to all these things, even if it's not tomorrow. I love, I love that advice. 'cause I think there's probably a lot of things. I've taken on, or, or, but if I would've answered it that way, it's like, well, I can't do it tomorrow, but I'll figure it out in three months.

You know? For sure. I, I'm sure I can have something figured out.

John: Can I ask you a question? Yeah. You could answer this or you, or, or not. I,

Brent: well, I can edit out whatever I want. Okay. Yeah. Well,

John: so I. Brent, you and I have done, you know, had businesses side by side. We've known each other for a long time. As you were doing starting up your video company, I don't know of anybody that I felt like worked harder, you know, and wanted it more.

And I remember a time when you had, we used to call it work debt, right? Like you would take on all [00:50:00] these jobs again, that time thing where you obligate yourself up front thinking, oh, I'll take care of that later. Right? That'll figure itself out, whatever you think. And. It kind of came due, right? And there's a gentleman who was a businessman that came in and talked to you, and I remember him telling you some stuff and you were like, dude, I'm spent, I'm literally sleeping at my studio to edit videos and to make a go of this.

And you're telling me, come in at eight and leave at six or something. I mean, he had, he, he limited your time. He limited. Like, you're caffeine. Didn't he like caffeine? A few things. Yeah. I tried to ruin it my whole life. I think like tell, would you tell us about that? Because I felt like you, your business jumped forward, you recovered from all this work debt be, and, and yet you, you backed up and kind of had to, you set some boundaries, right?

Yeah. He helped you set some boundaries. Yeah. How did that work?

Brent: Well, if you've seen that meme of the [00:51:00] guy that helps the lamb, that's stuck in like a rut. And then the lamb, like he helps it get out and it jumps off and then down the road it like jumps right back in. That's pretty much what happened to me.

No, I, because yeah, at that time I was taking on as many projects as I could because if there's one thing you want to do with your hobby, make some money at it, and then the next thing you do is you have a bunch of bills to pay and so now you don't have a choice. You have to make money. I mean, a problem I had had early on in the business that that individual helped me fix was.

Uh, at that time I was requiring full payment upfront for projects because I needed the money yesterday. And then what that turned into was I was 53 projects deep that were all paid up front, that I was trying to get those done, but I was out of money and so I had to get those done. Otherwise they're gonna want their money back.

And I also had to take on new projects to get new money, and that was a bad, bad place to be. So he, but yeah, it was [00:52:00] interesting with just starting to set a few boundaries and he also was the first one that was like, no, you need to hire an employee. Mm-hmm. And I was like, with what money? Mm-hmm. And, but it was amazing.

Started making a few of those changes, allowing to give myself some. Boundaries of time, meaning like, no, I'm not gonna just assume I'm gonna pull an all-nighter and get this done. I can't do that anymore. Then he helped me bring on an employee that I had to fund for the first little bit with a loan. I won't tell you where it IT that loan came from, but it rhymes with mayday.

Not a good place. Anyway, man, so many bad stories, but eventually we were able to climb outta that rut and then I think I got so excited by the. The prospect of having employees and, and how much difference that made for me that I went way too far on the other side and started hiring really fast as I kind of should have set another boundary right there.

But, but how did you learn that? Yeah, it is really [00:53:00] expensive, I guess. Well, I mean, I mean, you,

John: you didn't really know it up front. I mean, we were doing stuff. We had never done it and so we were just figuring it out and I think that's the. Like, you can't sit and feel really bad about it, I don't think. I think, but also if you do it again, you're stupid.

You know what I mean? Like, it's like if you say, well, you didn't have time, you overcommitted your time, so you gotta learn from that, right? So how did you do it? Well, you bought somebody else's time, right? You used an employee or somebody else to help you out. And it's the same for us. Like, you know, if you're, if you're putting all this time in.

Every second that you can and you're not wasting it, but you still need more time, then you gotta figure something else out, right? Somebody else has gotta come help you. Uh, if you're the only one that can do something that's not right either. What if you get hit by a bus? We always joke about that in the IT world.

What if so and so gets hit by a bus? Who knows his passwords? Somebody else has gotta be able to do your job. And honestly, that's the sign of a good leader, I think, is if, if you could leave and everything keeps going because everybody [00:54:00] knows how to take care of it, then. That's, that's success. But I think like you had a, it was really interesting to watch you at that time because it was like this guy was requesting all these things out of you and it was like, dude, it's not working with me.

Spending 20 out of 24 hours awake and then editing videos. How is it gonna work when I go, come in at nine and go home at six in the fu, you know, have this downtime. But that's the amazing thing is like the math, the math doesn't work. Well, but the energy does, right. Crazy.

Brent: I think with firefighting is there, we operate most of the time and I, I think with such sound principles, right?

We have all these redundancies built in. When you get, you know, 20 minutes or less or whatever, deep into a structure fire, you're low air, low air alarm goes off, commuting, communicating to everybody. I've hit my boundary, I gotta get out. Mm-hmm. Right? And then it's everybody's job at that point. To help you get out because if you keep going, [00:55:00] that's trouble.

And that's, you know, and, and so I think it's interesting that when it comes to business or family or our mental health, it's like as firefighters, we don't think that those same principles apply in those areas. I can go a forever or it will get better down the road or whatever. I'm not gonna do anything about it.

It'll just resolve on its own. But in firefighting mode. It's like, no, we have a crew that the lightning test with ropes, right? If somebody gets hit by lightning, can we still, this rope rig still work to get this patient off the mountain or whatever? Like we have all of these boundaries set up and man, I think if we can apply that same mindset to other aspects of our life, because I think, and you know, going back to that and, and you know, I think when we assume that we're the exception to the rule.

That, no, I can pull all nighters all the time, or I can do all these extra tasks without getting burned out. You're operating on a fraction of a fraction of a percent of possibilities that that's [00:56:00] gonna work. And you know, and in a structure fire, you would never take that kind of risk, you know, with a low air alarm and just assume that, oh, I'm sure I'll find a door on the other side, or I'm.

Like you would, no one would ever do that, and you would get in so much trouble if you just freelanced and decided to go all cavalier like that, right? Mm-hmm. But so I think there's lots of principles that firefighters already know. It's a matter of transitioning that over into other aspects of our life.

I. I think we're just about to the end here, but any last thoughts, Mr. Reiber?

Tyler: Oh, yeah. Boundary setting's easy for me. I just run it through my wife and if, if she yells at me, I know that's a boundary that I've crossed. Okay. But yeah, no, I, I just enjoy what you've had to say. If you're not excited to do it, don't do it.

Like you, you have, if, if it's extra sure. Like, you know, your, your time is limited. I usually use the bearing of like, okay, my kid, my child is five years old. If I devote all this time [00:57:00] to go to paramedic school or something like that, and I miss out on basically his whole from five to six years old, at the end of the day, how does that, how does that make me feel?

Can I, during the time that I'm not at school, make up for the time that I'm gone? And how do I do that by being super engaged with them, you know, trying to not be a zombie when I'm at home, that kind of stuff. And if it's, I'm gonna be a paramedic, hell yeah. I'm in, I'll do it. And I got an excellent partner that's gonna help, you know, fill in the gaps when I'm not there.

And when I've. Volunteer for something or I'm like, Hey, there's an overtime shift, a driver overtime shift, that sounds pretty sweet. And then if my wife's not like, yeah, totally take it. It's like, you know, you can't make up somebody's birthday party. You can't make up shoveling the sidewalks with your kids.

You can't just like do over those. That's an experience that you lose. And is that an experience that I am, I'm okay losing. That's kind of how I set my [00:58:00] boundaries. So,

Brent: yeah. Well, and you touched on it again, but, um, you have a clear communication there with your wife, which, you know, I think you keep your boundaries to yourself.

You can't expect others to help you respect those boundaries. Right. And I think that's a super important point. And we can quote our, uh, common friend Neil Gibbons as our closing quote, but man, so many of our problems would be solved if we just talk to each other. Yeah. I'll never forget him saying that.

And he says it a lot. Um. But it's so true, just, and, you know, there's no perfect combination of words to use to articulate your boundaries. Just talk about it and you'll figure it out. And, um, I think, um, not only is there power in what you'll be able to do in the short term with that, but I think if you're lucky, you'll end up like Chief Cox here with a good, long, prosperous career and get to do some pretty cool things.

So thank you again for. Joining us today and, and for both of you being here and giving up your [00:59:00] time and, and not setting the boundary short of this podcast, but allowing this within your boundaries. Appreciate that a lot and I will see you guys on the next one.

John: Hey, happy to be here. Thanks guys.