From Battlefields to Fire Trucks: A Veteran's Journey Through The Fire Service

TRANSCRIPT

Brent: [00:00:00] Welcome back, another episode of our Firefighter Support podcast. We have a couple repeat guests here with Tyler and Liz. Thanks for coming back and the legend, the one in all the legend Robert Stevens. Man, thanks for joining us today. Sorry, you're out on leave right now with the. Injury, but happy that it made room in your schedule.

Your busy schedule. Yeah. He could be here with us. I think we pretty much have gotten a little background on Tyler and Liz. We're just gonna go right into, tell us a little bit about you, Robert, man. We'll just get a little bit of your career history, a little bit of what you've done, and just start back in like the second grade and we'll just go up from there.

So no, just tell us a little bit about your career and all the things you've been able to be a part of. Mm-hmm. From law enforcement, swat, military, all those things.

Robert: Wow. I actually got started in EMS in 93. I had been working in the, uh, factories back home and knew that wasn't gonna be me, so I was trying to find something different, but I always [00:01:00]wanted to be a cop first.

When I got outta high school, I went up to the police academy and they said I was. Too short and too young. I don't know if the guy was joking or not about being too short, but he was definitely not joking about being too young. He had to be 21 to go through the academy. So I did some odds and instincts for a while.

Actually, before that is when I joined the military. I joined at 17 when I was still a junior in high school and had been in ever since. It's been a pretty good career. I've done my first little stint was a scout for two years. And then my unit transitioned into tanks. So I was a tanker for about nine years, and then when I moved to St.

George, they didn't have tanks in there. The closest tank unit was Las Vegas, and I didn't want to drive to Las Vegas, so it was already hot enough in St. George. I didn't want to add another 10 degrees to it, so I stayed in St. George and transitioned into artillery and did that for a while until I moved up here to Logan and then.

I thought, you know, I'm a [00:02:00] paramedic on the civilian side. Why not go finish out being a medic in the military? So I went through the transition course and became the military's version of a medic and had a few different assignments throughout my career and a couple deployments, and been to a few other places and stuff.

And anyway, so then most those places are

Brent: classified.

Robert: Yeah. If I tell you I'd to kill you. And, uh, anyway, so yeah, so I started out in EMS 93 and just been progressing up to there. I, I mean, I always knew what my end goal was gonna be, at least on the EMS side. And, um, so we, so I did that for a while. I started out full-time up in Idaho with two different services, part-time with one service, and full-time with another service.

Then we moved down to St. George and I continued down there. Well, my father-in-law was the chief of police [00:03:00] up here for Logan City for about four years. I think he retired in 95 or nine four. Anyway, he was the one that got me into law enforcement, so as a deputy down in Washington County for a while, did that and then some openings came up here to Logan and we knew this is where we wanted to.

Come back up and be was up here in Logan, closer to family, her family, my family. That's when I got on with Logan City and from there, my law enforcement career wasn't exactly what I thought it was gonna be. When I left the law enforcement down in St. George or the sheriff's office down there, I pretty much swore to myself I'd never put on another cop badge again until I came up here and it wasn't the agency I was working for.

Just being a cop wasn't for me. I was up here for about two months working for Logan City when I got a call from the sheriff's office up here asking me to come work [00:04:00] for him part-time. And I said, sure, just as long as I don't have to do any of the other stuff, I, I've been working for them part-time, doing odds and ends and.

I was with them about two months when I got asked to try out for the SWAT team.

Brent: So just backing up a little bit, um, what was your initial draw to the first responder world? What was it about the factories or wherever you were at that you're like, Nope, not doing that. And that also steer you away from being like an accountant or, yeah.

It's hard to imagine you as an accountant.

Robert: You've seen the movie, right? Oh yeah. There you that I can see

Brent: that accountant.

Robert: I can see that. I'm not sure what really drew me towards the EMS side of things. I had a couple experiences when I was younger where I actually had to help a couple people. Not really something super traumatic, but a buddy of mine was swimming in the canal, which we all used to do back then.

He actually stepped on a piece of glass and it lacerated his foot so deep that you could open it up like a book. Had my sock on the bank, grabbed it, wrapped it up. [00:05:00] And made it tight enough where the bleeding soft and you know, I had the only first aid training I ever had was from the Boy Scouts. And that was about it.

But I mean, it wasn't nothing like significant, right? And so from that it was kind of like, oh, you know, that's, that's cool. You know, and just that always, you know, I seen would see the ambulances going to calls and always intrigued me. And so I thought give it a try, see what it's like and see what we can do.

Fell in love with it day one. I fell in love with it. Yeah, I

Brent: think

Robert: that's

Brent: pretty

Robert: awesome.

Brent: And that was kinda right into the next thing is what kept you in it, you know, how did you know, like after doing it for a few years and even in a few different capacities that Yeah, this is exactly you, I

Robert: wasn't sure if I was gonna stay in it.

You know, I just, you know, you always have those calls that you just are like, man, what am I doing? I don't know if I can do this. And then you have those calls where you make a huge difference. You brought somebody back or. You changed somebody's [00:06:00] life because you were there to help them. Not necessarily from a traumatic side either, but from a medical side, somebody having a bad day, a psych issue or something, and you were able to talk to them respectfully, talk 'em off the ledge and get 'em to comply with you without having to use any type of force.

And then see 'em two, three months later and they'd be like, Hey man, thanks you what you said to me that day, you saved my life. Things like that was. The ones that was like, Hey, I can keep doing this. This is what I want to do. I wanna make a difference somewhere. Try to make a difference for some of those people out there that were having bad days, right?

Because that's what we do. Whether we realize it or not, we chose a career to help somebody that's having a bad day, to turn it into a better day for 'em so that they can keep moving on.

Brent: I think that's a great point. And you know, I think you bring up, uh, a valid thing that I think you have to be okay with if you're gonna be in the career for a long time, is.

Not every call's gonna be the Hollywood life. Oh yeah. Like some of 'em. Yeah. Are fairly crappy. You know what I mean? Tyler and [00:07:00] Liz, we do know you're all familiar, a very recent experience where it wasn't the most glamorous call that would ever be shown on TV, and yet you guys went above and beyond. On that call for that patient.

I don't know if you wanna share any details about that, but I think it goes right along with what Captain Stevens is saying. When I got

Tyler: to work, and I'm sure Liz would agree, I didn't think we were gonna be showering an old man. I mean, he needed us, but at least a little bit into it. I was like, this is gonna be more than a lift assist.

This is gonna be a service. As unpleasant as it was in the moment. It was definitely fulfilling afterwards.

Liz: Definitely.

Tyler: Yeah. Well, if you're not

Brent: gonna share the details, you're gonna force me to share, but sometimes there's the lift assist and sometimes there's the lift assist where they've fallen and defecated all over themselves.

Yeah. A lot of the guys would go and help that person back into the recliner or whatever and and call it a day. Tyler and Liz went the extra mile, helped this guy [00:08:00] clean up. Awesome. You know, actually get to a spot where you could feel good about leaving him, not just set him back down and walk away. And I think that's pretty cool.

Robert: I'll tell you, some of those calls make you think about why am I here? When I went through school to do this, they didn't tell me everything that I would have to give you. Showering stuff. Yeah. Yeah. You know,

Tyler: I did take the CNA class. They did teach me how to do it.

Robert: Yeah. But those are the ones that sometimes are more fulfilling and gratifying because you made a huge difference in them.

Not only for that patient, but that family member. That's that trickle effect. What you did today for that one person is making them a better person all the way down the line. And that's huge. There's no other job in the world that gives you that gratifying feeling and. That's a lot.

Tyler: That's a lot. Liz, do you remember what you said when we got in the rescue while we were driving away?

Liz: Nope.

Tyler: You don't remember? Not like Liz let, we're going to heaven now. [00:09:00] That's how you, I don't know. It wasn't until you said that. I was like, yeah, that was a crappy deal. But I mean, I don't think he and his wife could've done that. Or if they would've, it would've been a much harder situation we took. 30 minutes out of our day.

Hope we helped that guy out. And it wasn't until you said that, I was like, man, it does feel good. Yeah, as unpleasant as it was. I feel a lot better after that.

Robert: You gotta remember though, they are keeping score. So

you got 'em today. They're going up.

But I think there is, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

Liz: Oh no, that's okay. I mean, you don't always think about it, but those people also had to let us help them. Sometimes you'll get people who are ashamed or don't want the help. Yeah. But they let us help them. Let us have that little victory. So, yeah, thanks to them.

Brent: Yeah. And you know, there's different degrees of patience or, or whatever. The ones that feel like they're entitled to that kind of [00:10:00] help is like always bugs you or rubs you wrong way. But man, you know, the people that maybe they should have called hours ago, they've just been so embarrassed. But to finally call and to help somebody on the most fundamental level, there's just something about that.

Oh yeah, it's huge. That's pretty unique.

Robert: I'm not walking in there with like, oh, this is not our job. This is not what we do. You should call home health services or whatever. Maybe in your mind you're thinking that, but the reality of it is they treating them with respect and helping them, but there's no greater feeling

Brent: in the world.

And unfortunately, I think it's also true on the opposite end, right? That there's some pretty ugly feelings that we get faced with. Sure. Seeing the rough side of humanity or the most tragic or super sad things you can think of and some that you can't even think of but exposed to on a regular basis. I know we were talking about this a little beforehand, Robert, but something that's just interested me.

About your military service versus your community service with the fire department is sometimes in the military, those experiences are separated from your hometown. Mm-hmm. They happen in a [00:11:00]country far away or a place far away, and they happen and, and of course that that's its own thing to deal with and process, but I feel like it's a little different too to also experience some of those disturbing events in your hometown in a house or an intersection or a restaurant that.

You drive by every single day, you know? And there's the positive ones. You know, whenever you guys drive by that house, you'll remember, oh yeah, that's why I'm going to heaven. But then there's those other houses or those other places that you start avoiding. 'cause I don't want to remember, or I don't want to have to think about what happened at that spot.

Yeah. I'm just curious on your perspective on being part of the few that have experienced both, you know, what your journey has been like dealing with those and what are some. Pros and cons or advice you'd give on each, each scenario?

Robert: Well, it's interesting 'cause for me it's not just because it was in a different place.

What we do is the same. Right? But the reaction is different here. A family [00:12:00] member gets hurt and everybody's involved, including the family, the responders, law enforcement, all the way down. In other places, people don't get involved because if they get involved, then. They become responsible. Right? So they just turn and walk away.

It was God's will, right? It was today was their day and it was gonna happen no matter what we did. And you know, and this is where you two may want to slide that way a little bit. I don't agree. Right? I don't agree because sometimes there's things that I saw that were done intentionally and they shouldn't have been done intentionally.

Whether it's here in the States or in a different country. What we do is the same. Right. Nothing changes there. To me, the thing that's always been interesting was the reaction of those around you that saw it, whether it be family members, friends or bystanders, and that to me has always been interesting.

Does that

Brent: make sense? It seems like some of my worst memories have more to do with how the family was reacting in the moment. Mm-hmm. The patient's [00:13:00] there, and whether it's a child or an older person, we have our job to do. But it's the reactions of those around, you know, if it's an older person and the family's calm, they knew it was kind of coming.

That's very different from a child and everybody is expecting you to fix this right now, versus the bystanders that just keep driving by. I can see how that,

Robert: I think some of the hardest things, but some things that never have left my memory was in those other countries because they assumed we had had.

You know, all this super training and stuff, they, we were gonna fix everything and that wasn't the case. And you know, we, yeah. So, I mean, it's, it, it, it that, that was hard. That was hard. And then especially it was, it was hard when the parents were, the family members were pulling at you and crying and screaming in their language of having you help them and you couldn't do nothing about it.

So.

Brent: So have [00:14:00] you, after a long career of doing this in so many capacities, found some helpful ways to process those thoughts or reconcile so that you can keep on doing the job?

Robert: Uh, yes and no. There's been things that I've done that's probably not the most healthy way to deal with some of this stuff, but there's things that I've come to terms with that I knew I did everything I could to help.

In those situations, and then there's people like you that you can talk to, your buddies, your coworkers, or those in the same career field that can understand what you're talking about. Right. Fortunate for me, my wife, I. Was a nurse, but she's still a nurse, but she was a registered nurse and so there's been some things I've been able to talk to her about to kind of help through some of that process as well.

So, I mean, at least on this side of the ocean, but the other side not so much. Right. And I say that in respect, you know, it's different. Right. But I noticed that though. I [00:15:00] noticed that if I'm with you guys and we're talking about calls and stuff, I feel comfortable talking about those calls. The military, talking about some of those other calls and stuff, not so much right, but talking about different deployments and different situations and stuff we were in and different, you know, circumstances and stuff.

Very comfortable talking to them about it. Law enforcement, same thing. You know, some of the bad SWAT calls, and I wouldn't say bad calls, but calls that didn't end well around here. Talking to the SWAT team and those involved, I felt comfortable with it. Respectfully, if I was trying to talk to you guys about that, I wouldn't be able to get those same words and feelings out that I would be with them as a, you know, or with, yeah, with them as I would with you guys.

And it's not that you couldn't understand that it's just being in that comfort zone of being surrounded by people that have experienced those same circumstances. That in your mind, you know, that, or I wouldn't say, you know, I would say you'd [00:16:00] probably. Uh, more along the lines of them being able to understand what you're saying and the words you're using.

Right.

Brent: I think that's perfect. And you know, we know you don't talk to us. 'cause most of it's classified, we get it.

Robert: Most all the things that I did is not classified.

Brent: But no, I think that's a first page outta the book, right? Yeah. Having people around you that you do feel comfortable sharing and that comfort can come from a variety of things.

It's easy to feel understood because they've done the same thing that makes it very easy to articulate. Or to talk about the effort to talk about it goes way down. Yeah. Versus for me to explain to somebody who's not a firefighter, my effort has to go up to here. Yeah. Get them to understand what I'm talking about.

And if it's a traumatic call, I don't want to put in that effort. Like it's already hard enough. I don't need to teach you all about this career just so I can now share my, yeah. It

Robert: gets frustrating trying to explain something to somebody. When they keep asking questions, I wouldn't say frustrating at them.

It's just the session. Yeah, that's frustrating. Then you get to a point where you're just like, you know [00:17:00] what? Screw it. I'm done talking. It just shuts you

Tyler: down. It's hard to explain to somebody that hasn't been standing in your boots. It's like. People are looking at you, they have a specific expectation.

And when you're with your peers, they already understand that you don't have to go into, okay, well we went into the house and then I was standing there and this person said this and that. You guys just automatically know so you can get straight to the meat and potatoes. This is what we did, this is how it made me feel.

And you know, you're being understood. And it's more therapy than like. Okay. In class we're gonna talk about this and do you have any questions? Keep your questions till the end and it's like, oh man. Exhausting. Yeah. You get

Brent: halfway through your story. Why do you guys take an engine anda rescue? You're missing the point.

Tyler: Yeah. Conversation. I will never be able to forget that father screaming. That's the point.

Robert: Do all of you have to come? Like, seriously, I'm gonna freaking throat punch you right now. Exactly. Or smash your elbow against your face. Atomic elbow drop. See, [00:18:00] I learned something watching all the wrestling when I was younger, you know?

Brent: Yeah. See all that TV time paid off. Yeah.

Robert: Parents were wrong.

Brent: So I think, I think we could walk away with, you know, just having good peer, like the literal meaning of the term peers. Those that understand you already having people around you you can share with when, I know people joke about it with you a lot, but you also do a fair amount of fishing therapy.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, I do. Well, it's a hobby, but. Certainly that has to have played a role in how

Robert: finding a good hobby is an enjoyable one too, right? Not just a good hobby, but something you really enjoy is huge. It doesn't clear your mind though, that's the interesting thing. I think it helps you process it, but it doesn't clear your mind.

And because, um, as much as you want or forget about some of those things that you've experienced in your lifetime. In this career, those things will never, ever go away, and I don't care who you are, I don't care what type of therapist you are, [00:19:00] respectfully, they just never go away because there are things that I think about on a daily basis that I experienced 20 years ago on my first appointment.

There's things I think about that I experienced on my first pediatric traumatic arrest that happened, you know, 28 years ago. And they just never go away. 'cause you think about 'em all the time, and I'm not sure why. And you'd probably have a bunch of therapists argue with me about this, but I don't think it's that I haven't dealt with it.

I just think that their memories, that they're there for a reason and I don't think they're there to help. I don't think that they're to let you forget, but to remember what you experienced in your life. So if you see it next time, you can do better, right? Because we can always do better no matter what we do.

Totally.

Brent: I think it's part of that survival. When something traumatic happens, body ingrains that into your DNA because it's now a survival thing. You see something traumatic or you're a part of that scene, your [00:20:00] body doesn't want to forget that. I think the difference is when it becomes unhealthy, almost every, every time that thought comes back, you get sent into.

This fight or flight mode, and you now have the inability to be present with your kids and family, and that lingers for years, that's a problem, right? That means you probably haven't processed that. It's just by having the memory. I think sometimes we have this false expectation as responders. Well, as long as I still remember it, or as long as I'm still thinking about it, I must have done something wrong, but like I haven't fully finished processing that call or whatever.

But the reality is, if it's not disrupting your behavior every day, when you think about it. It is process. You should, yeah, remember it to the extent that it betters you and that's you're now experienced. But if you're associating it with guilt or shame every time you think about it, that's something you should probably get some help with.

Robert: Definitely. I'm not perfect by any means. There's things that I've been able to deal with well, and there's things that I've dealt with, but they still come back every once in a while [00:21:00] and have to find a way out. And sometimes that way health's not healthy, but it's not every day. It's just that one time that gets me through that process of helping me be okay for a minute and then I can continue on.

Right? So again, I know I probably get a alive by therapist right now, like that's not healthy. Well, no shit. I know it's not healthy. You know, for me it was at the time I dealt with it. Now I'm moving on. My point is that every person's different. You deal with stuff. At a different level sometimes with the things you've experienced in your life, whether they're personal or what you've seen since you've been in this career, you have, and I know you have as well.

I'm not saying it's okay to be unhealthy, I'm just saying for me sometimes those unhealthy moments, and I don't need to elaborate, I'm sure you guys understand what I'm talking about are okay for me at the moment. Yeah. But then we move on, right?

Brent: Yeah. Well, I think you can have a loose definition of [00:22:00] unhealthy, right?

Mm-hmm. What's unhealthy in somebody's eyes may be perfectly healthy for that moment. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like, 'cause again, it's, it's sometimes I think we get too caught up in the long term when sometimes I just gotta focus on, I just gotta get through this day. Oh, sure. I can worry about the next years to come tomorrow, but.

Doesn't matter if I don't make it to tomorrow. Right?

Tyler: Yeah. But I'm sure the normal person would say what we do is unhealthy. You guys signed up to jump in a box and go to people's houses on their worst day and to do things like chest compressions and throw tubes in their throats and. We use electrical therapy, going

Robert: to a burning building that's, you know, fully involved or something to do it to the, I mean, I've never done a rescue, but yeah.

You know, those types of things. Pull somebody from a car, pull somebody from a canal that you know, or something, or mm-hmm. Whatever, you know,

Tyler: but you're right. Normal person's gonna say that's unhealthy, but it's a job and it has to be done. And we're some strange [00:23:00] individuals that are like, if you're gonna have a bad day, I wanna be there to help you out.

When people ask me, why do you do what you do, it's like. People are gonna have bad days, bad things are gonna happen to good people. And it's not that I want them to happen, it's that I wanna be the one there to help you through. That's probably unhealthy. All the mental trauma that you're discussing. Yeah, but it has to happen and we have tools in place to help us process that.

Sometimes we don't do the best thing for the long run, but we get through it.

Brent: Some people may even go as far to say firefighter humor is unhealthy. You know? We know it's crazy.

Robert: Yeah. I've heard it several times. You know, sometimes the place not to be is at the round table in the mornings when you're talking about different calls and stuff because of the normal person would walk in and hear was talking, oh my gosh.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. They,

they

Robert: would.

Tyler: You

Robert: either call the cops,

Tyler: right? Or Yeah,

Brent: or

Tyler: the mayor. We have four psych patients. [00:24:00] It's station 71.

Brent: Yeah. Um, I think, well actually I want to, Liz, you've been a little too quiet. Yeah, that's what I, yeah. And tell us a little bit from your perspective, since you've. Been with Logan and, and you've kind of been around the career a lot.

What have you seen, I mean, is firefighter humor really that bad? What have you found helpful so far in some of these calls and processing and what have you learned from those around you?

Liz: Um, for calls, definitely being with my crew that I was on that call with, I think they can understand the most, just talking with them and captains.

Favorite Captains. Captains.

She said it. It's on tape. It's a supportive, oh

Liz: no. And I shout out to Jackie Anderson, one of our clinical,

yeah,

Liz: because I love her and I've started seeing her probably for two or three months now, and she is someone that I go to a [00:25:00] lot more so. You know, things at home. I don't feel like I've been around enough to see a lot of traumatic stuff, but when I do go on calls and it hits close to home, that's where I need the help.

Brent: Sure, yeah. Well, I think, man, it's great. Do fall into a trap sometimes of comparing ourselves. It's hard to sit here and hear all Robert's stories like, man, I have no reason to complain. Robert's seen it all. But the reality is, I think doing just exactly what you're doing by talking to the right people at the right time early.

Right. Yeah. There's no reason to wait until you're 15 years in, be like, okay, this is piled up enough. I should probably start talking.

Robert: So while you're there, I wanna talk about some, you know, off and on throughout the years, we had their critical incident response stress team, or they used to come up, the state had one that would come up and debrief some of our calls if we asked 'em to, which was good.

Sometimes we'd talk about it with other crew members or whatever we needed to do, but I never really talked to a professional. [00:26:00] Until I had an event happen to my family, and that was my trigger point. That was the time I had already been in EMS almost 15 years before I actually went and talked to somebody about, and then it all, I mean, it was just like the gates opened everything from my military to law enforcement to family to.

Well, everything I'd done in this job, the gates just opened and everything just started coming out. It was unfortunate. I guess what I was trying to say is that sometime it takes a triggering event for you to finally open up to, to go get help, and if I can say one thing, don't wait for that moment to happen because I, to me, it felt like I took longer to recover from all that than I have in the past of.

Now going to see somebody and talk to somebody and, and when I'm having my days and my moments and or when I need to reset to go talk to somebody, you know of walking out [00:27:00] with a little more clarity and feeling like I actually did reset rather than taking a long time to recover from everything that I just verbally vomited onto the therapist.

It was hard. It was hard because I didn't know where to stop. I was so confused. I, I had multiple. Triggers coming out or events that were all hitting me at once that I was trying to work through, and it was bad. It was affecting me at home. It was affecting me here at the job. It was affecting my military.

It was just affecting everything. And that was at that point where everything was really getting super unhealthy for me. And some people that are still around today could probably be like, yep, we seen it. We seen what happened to him, and he was not in a good place. My point is don't wait till you have something like that happen.

If you feel like you need to go talk to somebody, it's okay. It's okay to be not okay. Well I'm

Brent: really glad you shared that because I think people need to hear that and you know, not [00:28:00]everybody's as brave as Liz and and talking this soon, but I think, I think that's super important. 'cause not only can they help you as you go, right, yeah.

And give you tools so that you're just ready for the future ones too, right? Yeah. And yeah, I mean, of course. No matter when you talk, it's gonna be good to start that process, but I totally agree with you, the sooner the better to

Robert: build that resiliency, you know? I mean, that's super proud of you. If we're already going out and looking for that reload, I guess you might call it to help you because like I told you, man, you do, you don't wanna wait.

You don't wanna wait until those flood gates open because it is, it's rough. It's

Brent: rough. Well, I think it's good to understand too, that you never know what that tipping point's gonna be. Mm-hmm. Right. It may be that lift assist at two in the morning. Yeah. And it has nothing to do with anything, but for whatever reason, that is the moment.

And then everybody else around you is like, oh my gosh, why is that guy Yeah. Losing it over this call. Yeah. And really that call's [00:29:00] been building up for a long time.

Robert: Yeah. My trigger point had nothing to do with work. I. It was an outside family event. That's what lit the fuse.

Liz: I think a really common thing with us and our jobs and our lifestyles is we tend to downplay our stressors because we go help people who appear to be way more stressed than we are.

They're having a terrible day and maybe, you know, our little stressors will play 'em off like they're not anything but our cup still fills.

Robert: I agree. That's a good point. It really does. And it could be small things, right? I mean, seriously, the lifted at two in the morning could be that one that actually breaks the cup.

Brent: Well, I think it's good to point out that there's a lot of things that happen outside the fire service that sometimes that skews our perspective. Right? That, well, that call just made all my problems seem this big. Right. The reality is they're still your problems and you're probably just not acknowledging the ones that are that big.

Yeah. Right. And so [00:30:00] again, weeds are so much easier to pull and they're small, like taking care of. Yeah, I like that. I want to circle back to something you said. You said that you felt it affecting your family a little bit, but also. It was like, I can't, I don't think it was last year, maybe the year before we had that New Year's Eve party, and right after that party.

Me and Tyler are both like, if I grew up and my family is like Robert Stevens, I made it like just like your whole family was. There. Kids, older kids and just having a good time together. We were both sitting there with our little kids and just like, man, I hope my family grows up to be like that. Mm-hmm.

And so somehow whether you feel like all this has negatively impacted your family or not, certainly feels like you've arrived at a spot where you guys are awesome.

Robert: Well, you gotta, you gotta remember what we do here as much as we want to. Yeah. I look at it as taking your boots off before you walk in the back door.

Whatever you have on your boots, you don't want to drag it in your house. It's on you, it's in your skin. It's in your brain no matter what. And at some point when you get [00:31:00] tired, your family gets tired and they may not tell you, but they get tired. And so, you know, um, it, we, we've been through a lot with, you know.

With, with my family. And I'll tell you, they're they, they sometimes understand, sometimes they don't understand, but I think when they do understand, they get it. And so when you see us here at these events, they grew up with firefighters, they grew up with cops, they grew up with the military side. They've got the experience it all.

When you see us here, it's them letting off steam. They're building their own resiliency on how to help you deal with what you're dealing with so that they can understand and try to help you respectfully. I don't think they'll ever understand it, but they might get it enough to know that when you walk in the back door and you're not having a good day, or you had a bad night, they know you took your boots off at the door and not to drag that stuff in the house.

They know you're [00:32:00] dragging it in the house, and it's just by your attitude, your presence. Not talking, not saying anything. The list is endless, right? But do you have to be responsible enough to recognize it yourself so that you know when you're tired, they're tired? Hopefully you can sit down and not necessarily talk about it in a sense, but to hopefully get 'em to understand at least a little bit of it, and to also understand them too, so they can help you deal with whatever you're dealing with.

So I think the point is that they get tired just like you, and you have to see it as well. So that way you can help. Everybody.

Brent: Well, and uh, I think my takeaway from that is just being honest with them. Like, yeah, that call may have been hard for me, but maybe being open with my 10-year-old and just saying, Hey, I know it must be hard having a dad that's going through this stuff all the time.

Yeah. Because I know that impacts you, whether I admit it or not, but trying to give them room to feel. Um, yeah, or just like you said, build [00:33:00] that resilience or whatever. Is there other specific things that you found, whether it was family time or opening up about certain parts of the job or, well,

Robert: I mean, you know,

Brent: the.

Robert: I know when my wife sees this, she's probably gonna shoot me, but wouldn't be the first

time, right? That six more weeks. Yeah. I mean, my other elbow's gonna get broke.

Robert: You know, sometimes we don't talk about everything. Right. I mean, and she knows this because she's caught me a couple times, like, Hey, you know, you've been home 12 years from your first appointment.

I never even heard that story. Well, I was in a room full of guys that were there. You know, that experienced the same thing. So I was able to talk about those things, you know, and there's gonna be times where you're not gonna be able to talk about anything, you know, and it may be two, three years before you're able to talk about it at all, and you just hope that they understand because it's not that you don't want to talk about it with them, they wouldn't understand.

You just don't [00:34:00] want to talk about it. You get tired. And like I said, I know you, you get tired. They get tired too, but you get tired. But that's when you have to realize that at that point when it's affecting you, you gotta find a way to deal with it. And each one of us is different when we go out on a structured fire.

You're not gonna put your bunkers on the same way I'm going to, right? I mean, yeah, it's gonna be one boot at a time. You're gonna pull your pants up, but what are you gonna do next? Are you gonna put on your coat or are you gonna put on your hood? So we all do things different to help us deal with things differently to help us get through those situations.

I hope that made sense. Yeah, man. Yeah.

Brent: Um, want to transition a little bit into, um, so we've talked a lot about calls and, and the different kind of, you know, stress and exhaustion that can come from that. On top of all that, we're also dealing with normal organizational exhaustion, just like. Any other job where you're trying to be validated for the good things you're [00:35:00] doing, earn promotions and earn higher training and handling all that, and these same guys and girls that you want to talk about these hard things with.

Are also the same people you're probably gonna be competing with for that next engineer spot or captain spot or whatever. Right. And maybe you can walk us through a little bit of that, because Tyler just beat me on the engineer exam and I'll never forgive him for it. Hold dad against him for the rest of his life.

Robert: But you're still here talking to him for now, right? I mean, I've seen promotional processes where guys that. You know, that was the, the last thing they ever said to each other during that process. I mean, it hasn't happened a lot, but I've seen it happen.

Brent: Which is a recipe for disaster. Right. Huge. Because you lose that group.

Yeah. That you were now comfortable, like processing stuff with, and you developed a rift through these exams. Well, I,

Robert: I think the worst time for depart, the worst time and the best time for a department is promotional process. It really is. Because I think sometimes it separates. [00:36:00] People that were friends before are no longer friends or had good relationships are no longer good because either you beat them or you did better than them or something.

And it's sad. You go into this lockdown mode or you don't want to talk to anybody. The promotional process in a department's tough. I'm not sure if I'm the right person to talk to you guys about this, but you know, because I've experienced it, it's like having a bad call sometimes you. Can forget about those things and sometimes you can't.

They're just tough. But the one thing that I seen that happened on this last engineer's exam from you guys was everybody was willing to help everybody. And that to me, made me smile. That was huge because anytime somebody was like, Hey, I'm gonna take the engine down to the tower and go pump. That was sent out in a page where it sent out in an email.

And you know, people showed up when they could and you helped each other. Right? And to me that was huge. It gives me [00:37:00] goosebumps talking about it because that right there, that type of stuff, when you guys are getting ready for promotional process, will help you through that process rather than everybody going their own way to do their own thing.

No, I'm not saying that that's necessarily bad for somebody to go do that, but. It makes it a little more palatable.

Brent: Yeah. You're going through the process together. Yeah. I mean, I was just trying to sabotage the whole time. These guys are all team. Yeah. Yeah. I think the temptation right after a promotional exam is the temptation is strong to start pointing the finger, oh, the department had a, should he test?

Or This guy shouldn't have scored that. I can't believe they didn't mark him for whatever. And you start pointing all these fingers. That's a, well,

Robert: I've seen some of your other podcasts and like we were talking earlier, I was a little surprised on. Some of the things that people admitted, I'll tell you right now, I was one of those guys.

My pointed fingers was like, what the hell? How did they outscore me on that? I knew I was better than that. How did that happen and why'd they pick them over me? [00:38:00] It didn't dawn on me until just a few minutes ago. You know, when I teach PALS and the ACL S, which is some of the other things that I do outside of the department, but with the military and stuff, one of the things I always tell the group, we all.

Have our ways to do things and our own thought process to take care of certain situations, right? And we might think we know it all, but we don't. Before we start going through the skills and the testing process. My remarks to everybody is don't let your ego override your ass. Let your ego being bruised so hard that you're trying to blame everybody for your faults.

And the reality is you just didn't score well that day. Yeah, they just beat you on a test and your ego got bruised, so now you're gonna start blaming everybody else because your ego got bruised. But it's tough. Nobody wants their ego bruised, you know?

Brent: I mean, so how do you get through it?

Robert: Yeah. You know,

Brent: like, how did you get through it?

How come. Your career didn't turn sour and, and because, you know, well, it almost [00:39:00] did.

Robert: I mean, I'm not, I, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna hide it. It almost did. You know, I almost walked away from this career a couple years ago because I was pretty soured. The chief pulled me in a couple times and they talked to me a couple times.

We had a few conversations. Being able to talk to them about my frustrations was good because I knew they were listening to me. It wasn't like, well, you got two weeks to get over this. So you either do it or you don't, because if you don't, then you're not gonna be selected. Right. But just by them listening to me and sometimes taking the time out of their day to call me and say, Hey, this is what I seen today.

This is what I liked. This is what I didn't like. This is where we can do better. And then from their feedback, I was able to make some changes, was they suggested and wanting to make my own self-improvement just for me, myself, because I wanted to make myself better. Being miserable when you're at work is not fun.

It is not fun because it affects those around you seriously more than you know and, and more than you'll ever know. And you know, [00:40:00] you always remember the good times that you had at work, the bad times, but you always remember that miserable son of a bitch that was sitting at the table that was never happy, right?

And you're glad that they're gone. Well, I didn't want to be that guy. I didn't want to be that guy that was miserable all the time. So I knew I had to make some changes and stuff, but. Anyway, my point being is that by talking and having somebody, you know, having Nate, chief Thompson and Chief Haning, other people talk to me and tell me where I needed to get better and.

Even changed my attitude a little bit, you know, helped and, and so, you know, I got selected,

Tyler: you know, I've just gone to terms that I'm probably gonna have to work for Liz, the majority of my career. And Captain Liz, you're my favorite

captain.

Tyler: I could pretty much do okay until she starts meeting, like we start taking the same tests and just accepted the fact that I'm gonna work for Liz.

It's gonna be fine. I don't [00:41:00] think

Liz: that's

No,

Liz: totally

true.

Tyler: It, it was, it was an interesting experience. 'cause everybody that I tested with in the engineer exam, I wanted them to do well and at the same time, I did not want them to do well. Sure. 'cause I wanted to do better. But the feelings of. The group succeeding.

Overwhelmingly, that was like the best part of the whole experience. We as the quote unquote next generation of engineers, we did a dang good job.

Robert: You did. Did

Tyler: excellent. And it was nice. We once. All the scoring was done. It was what really mattered. We are an accomplished group. We might only be off by a couple points or half a point.

Well, the whole time, especially as I was driving through cones on the closed course, closed course, closed driving course, I was like, dang it. Here it is. I just shot myself in the foot. But I really hope that people show up and they do well because I love and I respect all these people. Yeah. And, and I want them to do well, and [00:42:00] I want them to do better than me because the better that they do, the easier my job's gonna be.

The better I can be for them, the better their experience through this whole thing's gonna be as well.

Robert: Yeah, absolutely. The person you should be. Competing against the most is yourself to make yourself better. Right? And that's, that should be the end result. And whether you're selected or not, and I mean, you hope you're selected, but the person you should be competing against is yourself and make yourself better.

If you're making yourself better, then you're gonna do that much better on a call. And the challenges we're faced with in this profession.

Yeah,

Brent: I think finding that drive of why you do this job in the first place. And allow that to still drive you, kinda keep that good attitude after a bad promotional test or something.

Because you know, I can look at at least three people in this room that have benefited greatly from the captaining of Robert Stevens. Oh geez. You know, and so you just wonder like, man, that made me blush. If you would've [00:43:00] succumbeded to the temptation to get sour and be like, screw this, I'm out. Then how many of us would've not had that benefit of,

so, you know, and

Brent: so I think.

Going through that, if you can have the perspective and of thinking ahead a little bit, this isn't just about me, but you know, I, it could have a lot of positive impact on this department by keeping my head up. Keep moving on and I'll just give it a better shot on the next one.

Robert: Yeah. Well, I did have, somebody asked me a while back when I was at, probably at my lowest in this career by attitude and just not caring about being here, why I was still here.

Had other offers from a couple other departments and I knew the grass wasn't greener on the other side. It was just a different place and different people, and probably the same atmosphere. They asked me, why haven't you left yet? You can leave anytime you want. And I said, well, I'm not sure. And they looked at me and said, well, is it because you got something to give?

You got more to give. And it was kind of [00:44:00] like an aha moment for me. And I think that was some of the change at the, you know, my. I guess the changing my attitude type thing was I knew I still had more to give. I just didn't know how much more. Yeah. So,

Brent: no, I think that's awesome. Professional athletes use the same thing, you know, leave it all on the field.

Yeah. I gave it everything I had and yeah, if, and there's that feeling of feeling like you didn't, like you left, you left the field, the sum in the tank, that's not a good feeling. So I think we can relate with that in this service as well. Did I give that call everything that I had and then. On the bigger perspective is the career.

I don't wanna leave this career feeling like there was something left to give and I went out early.

Robert: Most definitely. You asked earlier about organizational change, right? How has that affected your attitude or your wellbeing in this profession? I think that has something to play in it as well. Whoever is driving the ship can create the atmosphere that you're in or create that attitude [00:45:00]sometimes, because if the ship's going straight and it's nice and it's nuts.

Swaying from side to side. It's good. When it starts swaying, we start questioning, should you be there or should I be here? Or are you making the right decisions? And I've worked for some people, all three careers. That is really, you know, in your mind it's like, I'll never be like you, and that's good, right?

But there's others that you've worked for. You're like, man, I wish I could be like you. By helping support those people. Well, you know, they're doing the best they can, right? And when they make changes in the organization, sometimes it's accepted, sometimes it's not. But what you have to do is together as a group, support it the best you can and do what you can to help make that atmosphere good for everybody so that everybody's not coming in sour every day.

Hopefully

Brent: that made sense. It's interesting to me that the correlation, you know, there's the mental health side and, and I think. Like our calls [00:46:00] and our response gets all the spotlight. A lot of times when really it seems like our mental health is also very dependent on how we feel about the organization.

Oh, absolutely. How we are, you know, when you are dealing with not getting that promotion, like it seems like that's just as impactful. Oh yeah. But it also seems like the solution is very similar. Yeah, it is. Just by having people to talk to about it. Yeah, you had Nate and some guys that, it sounded like those conversations or those turning points that just helped you shift gears a little bit.

I know after that last exam, it's nice to have people I know. I can just say anything I want, I can vent, I can say things I'm gonna regret. Maybe things that aren't true, you just get out. I've never said

Robert: anything I've regretted, by the way.

Brent: See, we all have to be like you, but you know, and you just have, you know who those people are on the department.

There's some people that you don't want to complain to. You keep that. Conversation at a certain level. And then it's important to have people that you know will still love and respect you. Sure. No matter what you say, and, but it just allows you to get it outta your system. And then they [00:47:00] can tell you how much of an idiot you are.

Like, okay, this is where you should probably not think that way anymore. No, that guy doesn't hate your guts 'cause he did better than you, but, or whatever. Right? But they help you bring, give you that reality check.

Robert: They bring it back into perspective. They bring you back to center mass. We use that term in the military, bring you back to center mass and that center mass is your compass to get you going back into the right direction again.

I probably have seen that more with what we have at the helm now, and I'm talking about our administration than I ever have between all three. The services that I've been working for. No, I'm not saying that they've been bad. I'm just saying that them having their finger on the health and wellbeing of the department has been more prevalent than I've ever seen it.

Right, and that's huge. You're absolutely right. Anytime there's a shift in the organization, no matter who you work for, a promotional process, it can be [00:48:00] just as traumatic as a. Multi casualty event response or whatever big event that has that impact on your life as anything, when those types of things happen, and if we're talking as a group, you know, Hey, I didn't like that.

What the hell are they thinking? They're a bunch of dumb asses. You know, reality, that's not the case, so don't fire me. Chief. The point I'm trying to make is when we can talk about it with each other and maybe. You're not seeing what they're trying to do and we talk, then maybe you can see what they're trying to do.

You may not agree with it, but at least you can, you know, brings it back into perspective so you can see it. Right? That's actually part of the resiliency program. Bringing it in perspective, right? Those have you guys heard of icebergs? You know? Yeah. Everything you see on top looks fine and dandy, but underneath it's a disaster or vice versa.

By bringing it back into perspective or bringing it back to center mass, that can help you with that whole [00:49:00] mental process and being open-minded about it too. Like Eric said earlier, don't let your ego override your ass because it doesn't make you better than everybody else by resisting. It just makes you look bad.

Brent: Yeah, I think there's a lot of power in just articulating, right? And just by putting whatever your feelings are to words, sometimes you hear it yourself by the time you're done saying it, you don't need to get a response, but just by, yeah. Forcing yourself to have to put it to words. You kind of recognize, okay, my perspective is off,

Robert: or whatever.

Yeah, I had my wife tell me that a few times, repeat what you just said and then think about it and it's like

wis significant others.

Brent: But I think it circles back to Liz's point, being able to find somebody now like a clinician, if you're. At a spot on, you don't know who that person is on the department you want to talk to or feel comfortable sharing some of your frustrations.

I think clinicians are perfect for that. Mm-hmm. Because they have zero ties to the department. They are bound by a confidentiality. You can say whatever you want [00:50:00] about your captain or the chief or whoever is bugging you, and they can help you. Put the right perspective to that without letting those thoughts poison you and ruin a good opportunity for a happy, positive career.

Right? Yeah. And so I don't think it would be possible to go to a clinician for too small of a reason.

Liz: Well, and some days I feel great. I have an appointment, I feel great. I don't know what I'm gonna talk about, but just going, keeping that outlet open. I always find something to talk about.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's also a proactive side, speaking of promotional exams, I think that while clinicians are there to help get you back to center mass, get you back to your base level or your baseline, they can also help push you forward.

Right? So if like I just didn't do well on my oral board, I wish I was more confident, they can help you. Figure out the things that are keeping you from being confident. Yeah. And push you to that next level. I'd hope people remember that clinicians aren't just there to put band-aids [00:51:00] on all our bad feelings.

Yeah. And also there to help us build strength, build mental resiliency, give us tools so that not only can we maintain where we're at, but we can actually get way better. I think that's an awesome resource we have as a department. I think it's super, um. I, I don't know how unique it is, but it seems unique that we're in a spot where we get it all for free.

The department's put us in a position where you can get all of the help you want from a clinician at no cost. I just hope everybody remembers that, especially people that haven't been on the department that long. I look at some of our current probationary firefighters, it's like, especially during that time, right?

It's, you don't want to complain, right? 'cause you're the new guy. Yeah. And that can be a hard spot to be in where you have this. Huge load on your plate and so much pressure. Everybody's watching you, and you're not in a spot where you can complain. You haven't built the relationships yet, and you don't wanna be branded as a complainer.

So I hope. Those guys are taking advantage of clinicians. 'cause you can go say whatever you [00:52:00]want, get out of your system, then carry on, get back to shift, reset, ready to go.

Tyler: You guys are telling me you guys are off probation. How do I get off probation? How does this happen? So

Robert: when I got my 20 year letter, the chief said, I guess you're not on probation anymore, right?

Yeah.

Tyler: Instead

Robert: of you being on probation for the job, the job's on probation for you. Because now at any time you can pop, smoke and go. And then when I got promoted to captain. I'm like, does this mean I'm back on probation again?

Tyler: So you're telling me just 23 years? Yeah, 22 years. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah, I'm ready.

Yeah.

Brent: All I know is that I'll never forget the first day of my probation at Station 71 found out I was going full time and a couple of the guys went and got a cake and were like, Hey, we're so excited for you. And then. In walks, Robert Stevens says, Hey, welcome to the department Douch bag. But knowing Robert A.

Little bit, I knew [00:53:00] that was the greatest term of endearment.

Tyler: Yeah, I received, are we sharing our first experiences with Robert? Steven there I was. It was probably 2000, 2009. I just barely got certified as a. EMT Intermediate and he came to our station to teach us a CLS or pals, one of those two. We were just about ready to do the skills testing.

I got my gloves on and I'm all hyped up and I've never met him before and I'm like, okay, I am ready. And he looks at me and he is like. Are you an idiot? What did I forget? And I was like, I don't think so. And he's like, well, we're about to find out. Went through. I did my test. I was waiting for a, Hey, you did a good job.

And he just looked at me. He goes next. I'm still waiting close to 15 years. Am I an idiot?

Robert: Sounds like we need to go talk to somebody. You've had some, you've held onto some trauma. Yeah,

Brent: totally. I mean, this whole episode is orchestrated around. We need to know, is Tyler an idiot [00:54:00] not? And they go and say that Liz is your favorite boot.

Tyler: Oh,

Brent: I love it. Well, Liz, we're waiting for your,

Liz: I've had nothing but lovely experiences.

Geez.

Brent: And that's why she favorite. Now this has been great. Thanks for Robert for being here today and, and sharing everything. I know that so many of these things everybody's thinking about and has gone through to some degree, some more than others.

Yeah. It seems like it's inevitable. The more you're in this career, the more you're gonna experience both sides of that. Mental disruptive event, whether it's a traumatic call or a promotional exam, it's normal because. This job is so deeply ingrained in who we are. You should be taking promotional exams as seriously.

'cause it's not just the job. It's not just another spot to fill. It's part of this life. Yeah. It's part of what we do. So of course it's gonna impact you deeper than maybe the average promotion at the [00:55:00]average job would. And I think that's okay. But hopefully people know that there's plenty of resources and tools, especially more today than I think there ever has been to help.

Get through some of these things so you can still have that awesome career. So thanks everybody for being here today. Yeah, thanks for all your words of wisdom. And uh, maybe by next episode or the next one we'll find out if Tyler is,

Robert: but, um, so just a couple quick things or, uh, so, uh, first off, um, what you guys are doing for the peer support is huge.

I wish we would've had this a long time ago. All the hard work you guys are doing these podcasts, I can't say enough. Great. Things that you guys are doing and I really appreciate it. Just the resources that you guys are putting out there and putting together not only for your mental fitness, but your physical fitness as well.

Right. I could probably compliment this for the next three hours of just how great you guys are doing, and I really, really, really truly appreciate it because [00:56:00] you are setting this up for success. That's huge because this is gonna pay. Dividends long after I'm gone and you guys are the next captains or chiefs or engineers or whatever you're gonna do in this career, it'll show, right?

Keep that momentum going. Even on those bad days, keep that momentum going because this career needs what you're doing now. From the careers that I've had, they've all had their challenges. You know, the military's been trying to keep up on their health and. Wellbeing for their troops. You know, um, uh, I think it, I think the, the, uh, poll is like, and, and it's sad.

It's still sad, but there's an average of 15 service members a day that are still taking their lives. And I think it's happening more on the public safety side. We're not hearing about it as much as we are with the military. Um, and, you know, in public [00:57:00] safety, including law enforcement, fire, EMS. All of it, and I think it's happening more than we know.

This is what's gonna help reduce that, what you guys are doing now, and I hope it spreads like a good flower, not a bad weed. I appreciate you guys too. I appreciate all the support you've given me. I know I'm a busy guy and I'm gone and sometimes you guys gotta pick up those pieces when I'm gone and when I know when I'm come, when I come back and those pieces have been picked up and you guys are still continuing on to do what you do is that's huge.

And especially when you hear good things about the people you work with. Right. So, and then the one last thing to my family, you know, they're, they're the foundation of why I am here. You know, they're, they are the cornerstone and I know they get tired sometimes. They wish that as soon as I walk in that door, I turn around and walk out.

In fact, I think my daughter's even told me a couple times, dad, we're not your soldiers. They get tired just like we do too. And I've already mentioned it, but they're the ones that are gonna be there all the time. And [00:58:00] I can tell you personally without them, my wife, my three daughters, and my boy, I can't say enough about 'em.

They're been such a huge support, even on my bad days, if I could give them a stack of medal certificates or just a thank you, that's huge for me. So,

Brent: yeah. Well, I think that's a great note to end on. I appreciate you sharing that, because you know, if you're. If there's that firefighter listening that's having a hard time going in to talk to somebody or has been on the fence about it, you know, don't do it for you, do it for your family.

Need you home when you're home and these are the people you're gonna be retiring with. Mm-hmm. So I think that's, that's a perfect note. Um, and perfect thought to, you know, for guys that are encompassed with trying to spend a career doing things for other people, you know, if you're not willing to go talk to somebody for you.

We do it for somebody else. Absolutely, because you're around a lot of people. So thanks for sharing that, Robert.

Robert: Thanks for having me.