Spirituality in the Fire Service

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Transcript:

Harding: Well here we are in our next episode our next Firefighter Support Peer podcast. Today we're here with Brent Ho. Our peer team chaplain and Seth Weaver are highly Qualified peer team member from the south. There he is. So, what we wanted to talk a little bit about today is the balance of spirituality and the fire service.

And I think where we're In one sense, kind of the heart of small town Utah. I think a lot of guys are brought up with a spiritual background. But man, now you can certainly speak for myself and I'm and others that once you get into this service and you start seeing certain things, kind of rocks that boat a little bit.

And so Brent has spent 30 plus years with Boise Fire. And has ready to answer every single question we have now. Just kidding.

Brent Ho: I'll give an answer. It may not be the one you want to hear, but I'll give an answer.

Harding: So tell us just a little bit from your experience, kind of what either you would do or, or just kind of how you found that balance, or were trying to achieve that balance in your career as a firefighter.

Still maintaining a healthy, spiritual aspect to your life.

Brent Ho: Yeah. Well first, thanks for having me here and Seth for staying in contact with me and allowing me this opportunity. And I, I do definitely look forward to having conversations with guys and gals or whomever in the department or within the community to try to find that balance.

And do I say I have it perfectly dialed down? No, I don't, but. A verse in the Bible that I go to quite a lot, and maybe a lot of the individuals who are listening to this would have a good understanding of what Romans 8 28 says. And for those that don't, it's no big deal. But it says that God works out everything to those for the good of those that believe.

So what does that look like? So in my life, I believe the ISS of. I believe that he is all powerful and I'm not him since I believe that. And even though there are some horrible things that are going on in the world, not only on the other side of the world, but there are hard, difficult, stressful, straining, painful things that happen here within the cash.

And specifically here in Logan City. So the way that I understand that verse is since I believe that there is a God, and since I believe that he is all good, even though there are things that I don't understand, even though that I know that there are things that I don't agree with, I can see the pain, I can see the hurt, I can see the trauma that occurs.

Somehow God is going to work those things out for his good. It's not necessary for my good, but it's for his good. And since I believe that he is all good, there is an ultimate good purpose for those things that occur. Now that's gonna open up a whole nother, whole bunch of other cans of worms that are out there for conversation.

But through that one verse, I believe that that gives me. Assurance that though I don't know what's going on, though I don't understand everything that's going on. God does have my best interests and those who believe in him as a priority. Yeah,

Harding: I, I think you showed just something there just right out of the gate, which I think is awesome, is that I think to maintain a healthy spiritual aspect to your life, you have to have a pretty defined.

Role of what that higher being be it god, the universe, nature, whatever somebody's kind of been leaning on. But the more defined you have that role for that higher entity, I think the easier it is to have that relationship and to figure out right as those bumps in the road come along, are those tough calls.

It seems like in my own life as, as that picture of God or or whatever has been vague. Well, it's pretty tough to like, you know, watch some child suffer on a call or have some terrible thing done, and then you have this vague understanding of God or that higher being and yeah, that it almost seems impossible to reconcile.

But, you know, having a go-to verse or, or just this clearly defined role, I think certainly probably helps bring that spirituality into that reconciliation to, to feel good about. Okay, I did just see this however, I know who God is and, and I, I don't under, I don't understand everything about what I just saw, but I do understand this part of God, and so I'm okay with that and I'm gonna move on and hopefully figure it out, you know, or, or I'm okay with allowing him to, like you said, be in charge of, and, you know, good thing I'm not in charge and trying to figure all this out.

But I think one thing too that, that just came to mind while you're you're talking is cuz I think we, no one is, Unaware that there's bad things happening in the world. I think what happens to firefighters, and especially in smaller towns like Logan is man, it just brings it right home. You know, like, you know, there's people suffering in other countries, you know, there's terrible wars and, and all these things happening, but man, when you see somebody in your own neighborhood virtually.

Do something evil or terrible to somebody else or, or just, you know, something like a sickness or a car accident that wasn't anybody's fault. It was just a terrible thing. And, but it happens at the intersection you drive through every day. Mm-hmm. Or you know, like I said, your neighbor's house. And, and that all of a sudden now I think brings to the forefront some of those spiritual questions that maybe.

Don't want to tackle until something like that's presented. Turn to Seth for a minute. Seth, you grew up in the, the South. And tell us a little bit about your background. Maybe if you're willing, just some of the questions that you've had and, oh, for sure. Sort of being in this service

Seth: My background comes a little bit different too. I was raised in the bible belts of the south, so my papa was a Baptist preacher. My dad was raised Baptist, my mom was Catholic, came outta Canada, and then they met and became Mormon. And so I've kind of got a pretty diverse background of religions there. A lot of my extended family are still part of those devout faith.

And then being raised Mormon in the Bible belt, I went to Pentecostal Church's Baptist churches. I feel like I've seen a lot of beliefs in a lot of different ways. And that came in, kind of gave me a good foundation because whenever I got into the fire service I started having my questions as well.

I think like we all do, you know, started seeing some of these terrible things happen, bringing them home, started having difficulties at home. A lot of anger. And I had to try to figure things out. And I think the thing that helped me the most is having that clear definition of God, like you said. It brought me back to love.

It brought me back to a loving father, and I was able to take that from all these different religions. It didn't matter what religion they came from. The thing they had in common was the belief that love was this was this greatest power that love conquered all, and that it didn't matter how evil or bad, or.

You know, terrible. These things were, you continue to love each other and you can overcome anything. Hmm. And so I think coming from that diverse background, I haven't been, you know, just kind of stuck in one little bubble. Only knowing one religion, but be able to see many different ones helped me realize like, you know, between the good and evil, we don't need to fight between ourselves because love is gonna conquer.

Harding: Yeah, I, I think that's fantastic. You know, and it reminded me of something when I first started in the, the fire service. My, I was the first, my dad was a seminary teacher for 37 years. So that's a little bit of my background. But that was one of my first questions is, man, how on earth could God let this happen?

You know? And especially after my first like, kind of big call. But I will never forget what he. But it's kind of right along those lines. It was, you know, that we don't always understand why God allows or certain things to happen or we don't understand all the aspects of the suffering. But what we do know is that God can heal it.

Yeah. That there isn't anything that he can't heal. And anyways, that's always kind of stuck with me, but that kind of love conquers all God's. No matter what happens and, and all the questions that surround a horrific thing, but the love, the healing, um mm-hmm is never out of reach no matter how it feels.

Seth: So in that moment on that, I kind of, I didn't expect to kind of get deep and especially this early, but a little bit more at that is I experienced a really bad call that kind of pushed me over my edge at one point in my career that involved children. Hmm. Started heavily drinking after that because it kind of numbed it.

I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't taking care of myself. Hmm. Disassociated from my wife to the point where she was ready to leave me. Hmm. Not spending time with my kid. I went down a pretty dark hole. I've shared this with some of the guys in that department. I don't mind sharing it, but I remember I got to a point.

Where I thought so little of myself. One night I had my gun in my lap and I was ready to take, take my own life because I felt nobody could love me. Hmm. And that all this going on in the world, I was just, pardon Of the language. I was a piece of shit. That was it. I'm done. Everybody be better off without me.

Hmm. And luckily enough, I didn't, I didn't do it that night. That next morning I broke down and I went out for help. And I remember reconciling with God, realizing that I was never alone during that time, but just like with my own son, whenever he falls, I can't go pick him up every time. Instead, I stand back and I'll stand there and say, Hey, whenever you're ready, come to me and I'll help you.

I'll give you a hug. That's what he was doing to me at that point, is that he was waiting on me. To get up and come back to him and say, Hey, need some help here. You know, he didn't leave me alone. He never left me alone, and that's helped me ever since then I go to a terrible call. I realize like these things happen, but God didn't leave those people alone.

He didn't leave me alone. He's just waiting for them to turn to him. He can't step in and help us every moment of the way. We are beings that make our own choices, and I'm grateful for that. I get to make my own choice on what I choose of my life. He's not gonna force me to do anything, but he's always there waiting for us to turn back and say, Hey, you know, I'm here and I need some help.

So that's something that's helped me great throughout my career. Whenever I gotta deal with these issues, it's like, Hey, you know what? They had the choice. God's gonna handle that. He was always there for him, just like he's there for me and that. A good thing for me.

Brent Ho: Yeah. Thanks for sharing, Seth. Appreciate it.

Harding: Yeah, no, that's that's really great for you to be able to share stuff like that. Cause I, I think to one degree or another, I think everybody's felt that. And if you don't mind me asking a couple questions about that Yeah. But just what, what kind of timeframe did that span, you know, like to go from.

Maybe that call to that point you know, is that a quick thing? Was that years, months?

Seth: Well, it was one of those things I thought happened pretty quickly, but once I got in therapy and started talking and started working through, I realized that I had calls five, six years previous that built up. I never took care of them.

And so everything kept stacking one on top of the other, and then I finally had that one call that tipped me. And that was it. I kind of, I didn't care anymore and it just pushed me over the edge. And so that's what I tell people. Like, Hey, if you're having those little thoughts now in the blink of an eye, you're gonna be down that wormhole.

So it's better to go in and get help and start to talk about these things now, because you'd be surprised how quick it happens. Like I didn't even realize I'd gotten that bad. But once I kind of climbed out of that hole and I started looking back, I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, I see this now. Mm-hmm. And I see this and this and this, and it.

It was all a progress that I was so disassociated I never even realized. Yeah. Like, you know, I was at one point in time, you know, maybe a casual drinker, and then I turned to, like, looking back, I was like, when did I start drinking at 9:00 AM on my days off? And kept it going all day, you know? Hmm. Like, when did that happen?

When did I start repeating in my head constantly to myself, Hey, you're just a piece of shit. Nobody cares about you. Hmm. Like, it all came on so slow and suddenly until it wa I was so involved in it, it had me wrapped. Hmm. And I was down and. You know, that's what I've tried to tell people, like, watch for the sides, cuz you think it's a one time moment, but yet it can keep happening and rolling.

So, you know, your check engine light comes on. You don't wanna wait until the motor blows up. It comes on. You wanna say, Hey, something's going on. I better go get it looked at real quick. Yeah. And so that's something I, I would urge others to look forward to too, is like, we think these calls don't matter.

The calls that she brought up with me during therapy, I didn't think really mattered until I started putting the pieces together with her. Like, oh yeah, they did. They were just that small piece in the whole puzzle. But it, it was a part of it and you know, I never even realized it.

Harding: Yeah, no, I think no, I think that's perfect for you to mention that cuz it kind of normalizes I think, what other guys are feeling.

But then also and maybe Brent, you can talk to this a little bit, is. We don't have to wait for that one big moment, that big wake up call where we realize, oh my gosh, why? How have I got myself here? What are some things that we can do? Early on, if you do start to notice some of those signs, to know that, you know, you don't have to wait to access God's love until it gets so bad.

You know, you've hit rock bottom, but what can you do along the way to maybe prevent from even getting to rock bottom? But you start to see some of those early warning signs Seth was talking about.

Brent Ho: So I think good, open, honest, transparent conversations need to happen sooner the better. And for that to happen, you gotta have trust.

Whether it's with the guys who you're sitting around the table with having dinner, whether it's going to be day off and you're on the bank fishing, or you're up on a hike somewhere, you're doing something. Somehow at some point a person has to make a conscious decision to talk and open up and not try to be this, you know, schwartzenegger physique of an I'm, I'm impervious, you know, you can't hurt me.

I mean, it's. There's too many guys that I'm sure all of us have seen, and I've seen it in my life. And so when I say that I've seen it in my life. I'm third generation firefighter, and so my grandfather, my dad, and, and then me and I see, I've seen in the past, I didn't really understand it so much when I was an adolescent and then a teenager, but then being on the department, seeing, I mean, my eyes just being really opened into a new world.

And then God getting a hold of me and shaking me up when I was 35 and being called into a, a proper relationship with him. Then I started seeing things a lot differently. So if you can imagine these two, this illustration so I like using a lot of alliterations. Acrostics acronyms to help us remember things, right?

We're in the fire service, we gotta remember how to do certain things. We come up with these, these acronyms, these stupid little rhymes, you know, to help us remember that. We get the pump stopped, we get the pump in gear, we switch from road to pump. We, you know, we're going through and getting our calculations and whatever the officers doing considering procedures and operations, yet we've got these.

Mental images in our mind of how to help us get through a particular situation. So the same thing needs to be, if we take an emergency scene serious, we should take a personal emergency seriously as well. So being able to recognize those signs. And so imagine these two trees, if you will, one tree nice and beautiful, and I don't care what kind of fruit, whether it's.

Mangoes or apples or whatever kind of fruit you like, right? Good healthy tree. This other one is not such a good tree. So what can we reasonably presume is happening below the surface? One's getting nutrition, one's not one's getting nutrition and one's not. So with an individual, if there is some type of patterned behavior that you see bad.

I'm not saying that any one of you guys got bad fruit, but what I'm just trying to say is you see something, you recognize something in the individual. Well, it's gotta be because something else more deep-seated is happening. So I believe, and like I was mentioning earlier in our time together, I believe that the heart is the power engine for the think tank and the speak motor.

So what comes out, what happens up here generates from. So if I am a tree and my nutrition is not producing fruit, that would be lovely. That would be honoring, that would be caring, that would have compassion, that would have anything that would resemble that. Then it's probably bad fruit. Well, I gotta address the root system.

So each one of us is having pressure, some kind of pressure of some sort. Family, finances, educat. Career, you name it, that everybody's experiencing this pressure and this pressure is going to cause us to circulate in a manner that we. Bad fruit or we recognize it and we're understanding it and how does it help me to produce good fruit?

So when we have these stressful times, and so not to say, I'm just gonna pick on you, so, but you opening right up and yeah, there were other things that were going on in your life and obviously you've gotten some assistance to help you understand what was going on in your mind that was causing you to say, speak, think, do whatever coming.

Within you mm-hmm. That was caused and presented itself in not so good fruit. Yep. Right. Nine o'clock in the morning, I'm cracking a beer. Yep. Whatever it is, sitting down and I'm just sitting there and I'm staring at the wall and I'm thinking, I'm, I'm a piece of crap. I'm just gonna use this nine and take care of it right now.

Yep. Right. And so all these things, they're. Adding up and they're building up and they're causing a person to spiral to a degree out of control. Not that you're completely out of control, but,

Seth: oh, I was there.

Harding: I don’t know if he's ever come back. haha

Seth: I'm still spiraling this in a different direction now. haha

Brent Ho: So I mean, the, the whole thing is that if I think that I truly have control over myself and I'm fooling myself, I mean, I, I like to think that, and as type A individuals and people who are in the emergency services, we're supposed to make normalcy out of that, which is abnormal. Mm-hmm. There is a horrible situation we've gotta try to bring in under control.

Right. So it's ingrained in us because just of our nature relative to the job that we do. So how then do I change my thinking, change my mind, change my heart. So when I see something and I recognize it, how do I try to help the person to understand what are those pressures that cause the thoughts that bring about these motivations, these desires that manifest itself, that is in a unhealthy way.

And I believe that through the Bible, through scripture, that I can at least Help provide some guidance and direction. So a portion of the Bible that I tend to go to quite a lot in these situations is the fourth chapter of Ephesians. So if you haven't done any reading in the the New Testament or you don't read the New Testament, that's fine, but it's six chapters.

The first three chapters of our How God has Called You are this. You are chosen, you are one of mine. You. This is what you are. He's indicating to you what you are. Mm-hmm. And once you come to that understanding of what you are, If in fact you believe that there is a God, and if you believe that he is all good, now chapters four, five, and six is how you should start living that out.

So in the fourth chapter, it's got this real, it's, it's a, it's a fulcrum if you will. It's switched about, here's you are, here you are, here you are now here's your, here is how you should be acting. So it's the put off of the old man to put on the new man. What does it look to put off those thoughts, those emotions, those desires that bring about bad fruit?

What brings about good fruit and throughout that conversation, it's to realize, I mean, so again, you got these two trees, right? So imagine that this tree that's got dead limbs, no nothing, and this farmer comes up and starts stapling apples to these dead limbs and he turns and looks at you and like, look at my nice tree.

You're gonna look at him and kind of scratch your head. Man, what country are you from? Right? What planet are you from? So we, as individuals, we try to address the outer appearance. If I just change the way I look, if I just change the way I behave, if I just change, change the outer appearance, then that's gonna cause me to become better.

But it's not taken care of what's already inside of us. And I believe that trying to slowly have those conversations with people to recognize what are those triggers? What are those pressures that are causing you to. Bring about bad fruit and once it gets to the point you recognize it, and the sooner that you can practice on yourself, so to speak, and the sooner you can recognize, oh, I don't want to go this direction, I want to go this direction and I want to change my thought pattern, and it's based on a little rhyme that I've said before, is there's always two choices that are on the shelf, either pleasing.

Or pleasing self. And too many of the times I wanna please myself. I want to do what I want to do. I want to do what makes me feel good. I want to do these things, and that I have a strong e emotional desire to accomplish. Where if I think, what is it that God wants me to do? Does he really want me to A, B, C, X, Y, Z?

And that slowly, I think, can help a person to address the root problem so that it manifests a better. Yeah,

Harding: I think you bring up a great point with that because I think if we're truly honest with ourselves, you know, when it's just you and your thoughts or Oh, that's a tough you conversation.

Yeah. Well, we, I think, I think if you're truly honest in that situation though, you know bad fruit when you see it or you feel it growing. Right? We may try to do things to put on the facade when are around other people, but I think in those. And you're truly honest and you, you know, if you're being the kind of person you wanted to be, you know, or, or that God wants you to be you can recognize that.

And I think that's almost like an instinct that everybody has, you know, in that moment. If you're willing to be honest, and I think we can lie to ourselves for a long period of time too. You can, and convince yourself otherwise, un, unless you get to those moments that you just. You know, recognizing that, I think it's in that moment though then what do you do to start turning that around, right?

Mm-hmm. And I think that's where I think with firefighters, you know, it's not always this choice of do I love God or hate God. Mm-hmm. Sometimes the easier choice is I just don't believe in God. It's easier for me to do what I do and to see what I see. And I don't want to keep trying to answer all these questions about God.

It's easier just to believe there, isn. You know, I don't want to address those questions now, so I kick that down the road. And but then again, if you're in that moment when you're really honest with yourself, I think a lot of us want to believe that there is something else. There is a higher purpose, you know?

And so I don't know. That's a, it's a tough. Tough thing, but I think the easiest route we, we take is, is not necessarily one stance of one or the other. It's, it's, a lot of times it's just right down the middle because that's the easiest. It's the path, at least resistance, right?

Seth: I could say I could probably kind of fall into that category a little bit more, just to kind of highlight differences between Brett and I.

The first time we talked like. Well, I believe in God. Everybody's been around me knows. I may not be the best example of that. You know, I do have that potty mouth and I make some jokes that sometimes raise eyebrows to certain people. You know, I'm going, sorry. That's just what it is. Why you look at Brent, Brent is a very outstanding man who you can look at him and know, like, Hey, he represents God and his fullness, and I feel like me while I believe in God.

It's, it's, it's my belief. I have that personal relationship with him and I'm constantly working on that to try to get. And beforehand it was very simple to say, either I do or I don't, all in or nothing. And once I developed that relationship with God understood, he accepts me for who I am. And my getting better every day looks different than Brent and with yours.

And so I'm comfortable with that Now. I'm comfortable knowing, like other people might look at me and say, Hey, he's, you know, a little offered a little different. But yet I. Like God's proud of my progress today. You know, he's proud of those steps I made to be a little bit better today than I was yesterday.

And so that's kind of what I hold onto whenever I'm thinking about that relationship. Like I may not be like all in and all believing. But I do do believe in him, and I'm figuring out the rest, just trying to be a little bit better every day while I can look at Brent. And we're probably gonna have some disagreements on the things I do with my life at certain times of my life, but yet we can maintain that love and that relationship and still have conversations around the table.

Brent Ho: You look, you look back on history and probably even within this generation specifically, you can go. Search search plenty of different YouTube videos that are out there. And you can have two people that are, could not be further apart from one another on a belief of God, and they'll still have an, a respectful conversation and they'll leave.

I mean, they, they still don't agree with each other, but they'll shake each other's hand and they'll be cordial. One in particular was it Hitchens? I can't remember if it was Hitchens or. Dawkins, one of the two of them is having a conversation with a pastor up in a church from Northern Idaho. And they didn't agree with each other, you know, but they talked back and forth and they were respectful of how they addressed one another.

And you know, again, some healthy banter back and forth. And they giggled a bunch of times in the conversation, but they were respectful. So if one of the three of. One of the three of us have a differing view, which I'm sure we do, about who is that higher being? What is that higher authority? Well, let's talk about that.

Let's talk about what you think. Let's talk about what I think, and at some point whether we still disagree or not. I, I irrelevant. Let's still be open and honest and I still want to have that open trust. Doorway that someone's going to maybe disagree, but we can still talk. We can go up skiing, we can go out hunting.

We can go for a hike. We can go out, play golf. We can still enjoy each other's company. The two of you, I see you as image bearers of God and others. And because of such, I'll treat you with respect and value and dignity. And I would, whether or not you give me the reciprocal treatment is irrelevant.

It's how I treat those who are around me. God tells us plenty of times in scripture, don't just love those who are around you that are lovely. Mm-hmm. And we're told to love our. I don't consider you guys an enemy, but even if there was somebody who was an enemy who was sitting in this room, I'm still supposed to love them in the same manner in which Christ has commanded me to do.

Harding: I, I think that's a, a great point because the way we interact with each other I think is ultimately, you know, if there is a measurement for how we feel about God, it's manifested in how we treat each other. Hmm. Yeah. You know, like, I don't know how somebody that believes in a loving God could go and be a jerk, you know?

And we all have our moments of course, but Yep. We're not perfect. But if the goal is, man, I just want to be better at treat. Humans and fellow, yeah. Fellow humans better. Like, that's my goal in life. Then I, I think you can't, it's hard to go wrong with that. But the moment we get too caught up in, in maybe some of the details that you disagree with people on, then all of a sudden those details become more important than the person.

Mm-hmm. Right. And I, so I think that was well said. I also brought up, I think, understanding our role Our, so we talked about at the beginning, kind of defining that higher beings role you know, be it whatever it is, God or nature, the universe. I think we're all in a similar belief in a God here, but defining that role, but also what's our role within that, right?

If there is this God out there and, and they have this role to, to spread love and, and help heal suffering and, and to help us be better, well then what's my part in. Right. And I think Brent, you said it earlier too, with the two options we have, we can do something to serve ourself or something to serve God.

And so if we understand what our service to God looks like, well that gives us a whole new purpose in life, right? That if, if you come, you do have one of those tough calls that are hard to see and hard to sleep at night with, but all of a sudden you don't only understand God's role in that, but you understand your own personal role and what you can do to help.

Begin that healing or, you know, even if it's your crew members, you know, with, with us we, we rarely get to interact with the patient after the call. But you see the hurt that it puts on other crew members and there's an opportunity there to help them begin the healing process and, and in a way kind of be that, that instrument.

God's hands or the universe or, again, I, I want to keep it fairly general to those that may view things a little differently. But if you believe that you have a role in assisting God in the healing, then man, I just think there's nothing more kind of rejuvenating than being able to be a part of that and help others kind of start that path of, of healing and, and joy.

So, one other thing that I wanted to address on our topics today is, is when it comes to religion, especially I think within our, our department and our area which we live here, is not only having a healthy relationship with your spirituality with God, but I think there's a certain culture and.

Balance that has to be found with your chosen religious denomination, you know, and what does that look like? Because I think a lot of people that are brought up, you know, Baptist or LDS or or anything else, sometimes you're so deeply ingrained in that culture that in some ways it can become unhealthy until you figure out what that balance is.

Right. And Seth, you mentioned, you know, just starting. Be okay with where you're at and knowing you're trying to, to progress to this level, or you're just working on stuff, but being okay with the fact that you know, I don't have to look exactly like this member of my congregation looks to be loved by God or to be considered, you know, a saint or, or whatever.

Yeah. Or just a good person, you know? Yeah, yeah. The standards that we kind of can sometimes measure ourselves. It can be a hard, hard relationship to balance. And so, I don't know, maybe Brent you can speak to that a little bit too, is just having been involved with your congregation and, and kind of what is a healthy relationship with your chosen Church kind of look like?

Brent Ho: A common phrase that any one of our pastors at our church says from the pulpit, or it's wherever that, that they might happen to be, is we gather and we scatter. So we gather on Sundays. I believe that we're commanded to do that. And I use Hebrews chapter 10. I believe it's verses 19 to 24, especially toward the end there toward 24, and that we are to.

And I'm paraphrasing, we are to actively come together as a body believers. We're not supposed to stay at home. We shouldn't be just watching a televised zoom meeting or whatever it is. We are to come together and to congregate, but then we're supposed to be the seed cuz we are the hands and feet of Christ where we're supposed to scatter.

Gather and scatter wherever you happen to be. Scatter. Scatter the seed. Scatter the word Preach about who he is. Now, I don't want to come off and be somebody that I'm gonna be some street preacher. I'm standing on the corner and I've got a sandwich board on my, on my chest and says, you know, the end of the world is coming and be one of those individuals.

I do believe that the end of the world is coming at some point, but that's not my focus. My focus is what I've been given a charge to do, is to speak what I believe is truth. And how that comes across is supposed to be like, I'm gonna say it over and over, is in a loving, honoring, humble, compassionate way in which I can have a good, open and honest, transparent dialogue and conversation with any person.

Regardless if they have no. In God or a very strong belief or anywhere in between. And I believe that will also manifest itself very similar to in the New Testament. I think about the gospel account according to Matthew chapter 22 gets into a, a timeframe to where a bunch of the religious leaders are asking Christ a lot of questions, and they're saying, all right, well, are we supposed to tax pay taxes to.

And you know, so some type of political question, and you look at our country today, they're all asking all kinds of poli political questions. And then the next one, you know, comes up and says, well, this man was married to, or this woman was married to a man. That man died and she married all of his brothers, you know, well, who now?

Who's she gonna be married to in the afterlife? Well, it's a social, Question. And what have we got going on now? A lot of social questions. It's the book of Ecclesiastes is very clear in that there's nothing new under the sun. Everything that they experienced back then we're still experiencing now, except we've got smartphones to do it, and we're just point click, point clicking.

Google's helping us trying to figure out all this stuff. So after all these questions are being asked, a lawyer asks him what's the greatest. And it's a bit of a trap because I mean, one who has studied the Hebraic law, there's more than just 10 commandments. There's over 600 commandments, and they're trying to weigh, you know, what's the heaviest one, what's the greatest one?

And he goes right back to the Old Testament, exactly what the lawyer would expect. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. For a bonus question, he gives them the second commandment, and that is to love your neighbor as yourself. And if I keep those two things at the forefront of my mind, if I keep those two things at the beginning of how I pray for an individual, how I enter into the conversation and see that wow.

Seth's got a lot of pressures going on. Brent's got a lot of pressures going on him and trying to figure out and trying to understand what are these pressures that he's having that either of you or any person is going through. How do I lovingly work through those and stay into that good conversation with him so that when we may have a differing understanding of who God is, at least we can come out and say, all right, you may not think that you're a religious person, but I mean you're worshiping something and I just gotta figure through how they answer the question, what that is.

Harding: Yeah. And I think that is a fantastic example from the Bible. It's been something. That over my own journey that I've fallen back to that exact same thing that and I think sometimes as I tell myself, man, I'm just, I just wanna be so busy loving God and loving my neighbor that I don't even have time to worry about the other commandments.

Like they're all less than those two things. And if I can figure out how to do those or devote all my time and intention of those two things, I just hope God will forgive me if I mess up the other 598, you know, like, but I just want to really get good at those, you know, and I, I think ever since I've kind of taken a little bit different stance and, and just try to focus on the core, you know, I, cuz I think how many of us are like that lawyer, you know, and that, you know, so.

I think you know, maybe the lawyer and, you know, just as you can try to imagine the circumstance, what if he was trying to initially trap Christ in a question? But maybe there's a little frustration there too. He knows all these commandments and, and it's hard to keep up with them all and, and how do often do we all feel like that, right?

Like, man, I'm a terrible person. I, I can't do any of the commandments. I'm just terrible. You know? And we use our religious denomination as a vehicle for shame and guilt and what a terrible train wreck, you know, that we have. Opportunity to gather and worship together, and we just come away with feeling like, man will, I'm just more shameful and guilty than I've ever been, you know, versus you know, and so I, I kind of like to, when I read that story, I like to think maybe the lawyer was coming at it from that, you know, this has been nothing, but, and he's put that on others.

He's measured others by their ability to keep those commandments right. But then at least in Mark's version of the. After the savior answers the, those, that question he takes the lawyer and, and the lawyer agrees with him and he says, you are not far from the kingdom of God. And I love that because, and that's what gave me, it made it kind of gave you that hope that, man, I'm gonna be okay if I just focus on those two things, but I get other things wrong.

I think God's gonna be okay with me. Yeah. You know, and, and just seem to alleviate. This unnecessary pressure that sometimes comes, and I don't think a lot of the times by any fault of any particular denomination, but just what we kind of bring on ourselves and if we can, if we really want to be close to God and that kingdom of God and just focus on those two things, I think, man, there's a lot of peace that comes along with the pursuit of just those two commandments.

Seth: I think you're right. So I have four. And I have this one brother at the age of 15, got his associate's degree, you know, just was an outstanding school kid. Always listened to mom and dad. You know, he's been really good his whole life. I'm kind of jealous of it. But now he's an attorney and you know, he's doing really well.

And we joke with my dad that that's his favorite child because of all those things he does. But in the reality of it is my dad loves us all and he loves us all equally, even. Because he knows all of us are just trying our best now, my best and his best are very different. Like I didn't graduate high school and yet here's this guy grad at the age of 15, like associate's degree, getting into college early.

You know, all this kind of stuff. And so that's where I kind of feel like with God too. Like as long as we're trying our best, we're putting that best foot forward. It doesn't matter where each one of us. That he's gonna love us the same. Yeah. And I hope that's gonna get us into that kingdom of heaven because we're all trying our best no matter where we are.

Brent Ho: I hope that the listening audience really listened to what you were just saying right there, because we shouldn't, and we fall into the trap. We want to compare ourselves so much to what everybody else is doing. Right. But in Colossians, in chapter three, or in verse 17, in verse 23, there's a similar statement that's there, and it's whatever you.

Whatever you do, whether you're good at pounding nails or you're good at pounding the pavement or name it everywhere in between, whatever you do, do it. Hardily as though to God and not to man. I'm not here to impress you guys. I'm not here to make myself look better. I shouldn't be looking, making myself look better.

I, if anything, Christ gives me the example and says, I didn't come here to be served, but I came here to serve. So if anything, I should submit. And it looks weird to the, the watching world that seems very odd. Like, what are you kidding? You should be, you need to be self-talking yourself into being better and better.

And I was like, well, if I do that, then I start to elevate myself over someone else who might need some. And I don't wanna do that. I want to serve, I want to help. I want to come alongside. I want to be that brother that's mentioned in Ecclesiastes to where. When I think about the scene from Forrest Gump, Bubba comes up doing, Hey, Forrest, you lean against me and I lean against you.

That way we don't fall asleep at our head in the mud, right? So I want to be that person that I can come along someone and, and help them through a tough time, and hopefully that the listens audience heard what you said, to not compare yourself with others, do what God has given you the talent to do, and do it to the best of your ability, loves equally regardless of what you. Regardless of what others think. Anyway. Yeah,

Harding: no, I, I think that's perfect because whatever we've convinced ourselves of, I just don't think we're very good judges of character for the most part. You know, whatever somebody looks like on the surface or you see 'em do certain things like, I don't know if I would do that.

That way you have no idea what's going on in their heart until they choose to reveal it to you. And the moment they do, You know, regardless of whatever's been done, it seems like the moment you know somebody best, you have no choice but to love 'em. You know? But it's when we don't know somebody very well that it's easier to keep our distance and, and come up with, you know, storylines on why they're that way and, and you know, but once they reveal their heart and we've given them a safe spot to do that, I mean, love is, you know, kind of right back to the beginning, you know, it's just, Kind of conquers all, conquers all faults and shortcomings.

Seth: I believe it was Ted Lasso that said be curious, not judgmental.

Harding: And now you're talking, Ted lasso. Now we're talking, huh? Yeah. Seriously though. I think I think hopefully if anybody gets out of anything from our little discussion today, it's kind of right there with what Brent was ending on, is that, you know, we can lean on each other and I think just by talking.

About our spirituality, regardless of what that is or what that looks like. Just by having to articulate what you believe to somebody else, even if you don't agree with them or they don't agree with you. But having to put your beliefs to words is a, I think, a super healthy exercise. And if you have safe people you can do that with where you know that they're not gonna now condemn you because you believe a certain way or different.

Mm-hmm. But you know, you can share that and lean on each. I think that's a, a very healthy thing for your spirituality and and I hope that you know, that anybody that wants to have these kind of conversations, that's exactly what the peer team is here for, you know, and certainly what our chaplain, Brent is here for is, is somebody that just needs help reconnecting to their spirituality or to find their place in.

World and, and you know, cause we talk a lot about fitness, we talk a lot about nutrition. We talk a lot about mental wellness. But I think a, a key aspect also is our spirituality. That a good, happy, peaceful life has to have elements of those four things. And, and you leave spirituality out and it's not gonna produce as good as fruit as you certainly could have.

And so, anything else that you guys want to cover?

Seth: No, I just, I kind of hope, you know, whoever listens to this understands that, you know, like you said, we're not here to judge. I honestly want everybody to know I love them. You know, I might have cussed you a time or two 'em, you know, I have my moments as well, but I honestly love everybody here.

I don't want 'em to be alone. I want 'em to know they have somebody just like almost, I rely on God and have somebody, and so I hope they, I hope I portray that feeling to them that. I'm here if they need me. You know, I think all the peer team, all the brothers and sisters here at Logan Fire.

Brent Ho: I think though, one thing that I would like to leave with the membership that would be viewing this and to anyone else that would be viewing it relative to the department, has a mission.

And so I'm hopeful that what I've, and I've muled over. For the last several nights last several days is like, what, what am I here for? Why am I doing this? Why have I been given this privilege to, to talk, to speak, to be involved with another group of firefighters, just another community. So like I mentioned before, we like alliterations, we like acrostics, we like things to help us remember.

So they're my five rs relative to my mission, I believe. So at. Request or whatever type of policy that comes out that I see, you knows, whoever the incident. Calls that I would r respond to a call to be used at the discretion of the incident commander. So that'd be my first R. The second one is to, regardless of the situation, help to try to reduce the injury or reduce the crisis by entering into a loving, open conversation with people through that time that my reaction and my reply, so my reaction that it would be with love and compassion and that the way that I would reply to anything.

In the given situation would be with truth and love and with my last R is in to reproduce or try to, well, to reproduce and reproduce a similar situation, be at the next emergency call or at the next station visit, or wherever it happens to be. So through that, that God would get the glory that he would be honored in anything that I would say.

Harding: Yeah. Perfect. And thank you for saying that and, and bringing that head there and then Seth, and just reminding everybody that we're, we're here for you and we want to, we want to just be a helpful resource. And, you know, and maybe just to close out with maybe what some of those emergencies might look like, you know, if, if, and so, you know, to those listening, if you've ever wondered about your purpose in life, if you've wondered about why God lets bad things happen to good people if you've wondered about just suffering in general and, and how, and how that works within, you know, some greater plan.

If you've wondered about, you know, with as much as we see death in this service, what happens after death? And, you know, and had any of those kind of soul searching questions That's kind of, a good spot to be in to send out the, the call and ha start a conversation. It seems like those are pretty hard questions to answer on your own sometimes.

Hmm. But there's certainly people here that have wondered the same thing and by talking about it together, I think we can, we can find peace in, in healing and, and trying to find the answer and find a way to at least. Be of peace and so appreciate you guys being here today and, and having these conversations and we'll see you on the next one.