Overcoming Addiction

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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Brent: Welcome everybody to another episode of our podcast for firefighter.support. I really appreciate Brandon being here with us today. And Neil, one of the elite fire captains at Logan Fire. Brandon, why don't you start off just kind of introduce yourself to us and kind of the department and kind of Okay.

A little bit of your background and. Some of the things you specialize in. Okay,

[00:00:20] Brandon: so I'm a local guy. I grew up here in Cash Valley, out in Young Ward. I don't know if you guys know where that is. Just kinda out there by Menden out in the field. So, grew up there went to Mountain CREs High School served a church, mission, came home, decided to, I guess I try that college thing.

Went through it. Got a bachelor's in sociology. I immediately got a job at Youth Corrections. Worked there for about four or five years before I decided I probably should go back to school, get a little more education. The original plan was to go into school counseling, but some other things came up that I thought would be a better switch to go into mental health.

I graduated in 2008 and I got a job at the health department doing substation counseling. So working with mostly offenders of the law. That's kind of the, been the main focus. It's transitioned better since then, but most of our clients were drug court or probation and general public as well.

But it was a good experience for really getting a baptism by fire of addiction. I also did some private practice at the time working with pornography addiction and so in total, probably about 12 years, 13 years working in that kind of environment. Three years ago I got a job working for the church and doing some vocational counseling.

And a year ago I opened up my private practice again to do more. General therapy kinds of things. I've been working with the victim's advocate office to take any bystanders or victims of trauma first responders of any kind. And that's been a really good experience for me. I've really enjoyed it.

Feeling like you're giving back to the people that give back to you. So I've really enjoyed therapy. I do best on one-on-one. I can do the group things and I can really enjoy that, but I work really good with one-on-one and work with people's issues where they're at. So yeah, so I do the private practice several nights a week.

I usually do about nine to 10 hours a week and I go on calls if things come up, so, sure. Yeah. And that's been, it's been good to learn. Yeah. That's

[00:02:22] Brent: awesome. What is it about doing therapy and working with people that That you love and that has kept you in that you know that you didn't do it for a couple years and like, nah, I'm outta here.

[00:02:32] Brandon: Yeah. So, you know, you hear everything any problems that people are going through, you hear it. And so you get to be with people in their personal space their ideas. They don't even share with their parents, things that they don't share with their spouses. And so you kind of have a. A bond with a client that you're really in their most intimate and most vulnerable self.

So, to be trusted with that kind of relationship is high importance to me. But the thing that's kind of the paycheck is when you see the kind of that light go off, like, oh. That's a thing, or they get something about their life that they hadn't thought about or, you know, really the topping is when they make the changes and things in their lives.

But in addiction, it's, that's a hard feel to see that. So it takes time to see, you kind of have to glory in the. Plant of the seeds and the process and know that it's gonna take some time. But yeah, just when you connect with someone and you see the immediate difference in their life, and sometimes you get families that know you or get to hear about what's going on.

So, seeing that relationship and seeing the person. Develop and grow or get over something that they've been struggling with. It's, that's the paycheck. Yeah.

[00:03:48] Brent: Yeah. That's pretty cool. I think, you know, sometimes in, in our line of work as firefighters too, I think sometimes I. You can go down a track and get kind of jaded cuz you're dealing with, you know, the worst of society sometimes.

And and I'd imagine it's probably similar for you, but then it's so cool when you get on the flip side of that and the real powerful part of human nature. Sure. And being able to change and somebody who's in the depths of whatever addiction or trouble or mental health issue to be able to watch that person kind of.

Take control of their life back, I think is pretty awesome. And for us too, in those moments when you're helping somebody and you get that, make that, I feel like you're really making that difference. It's pretty Yeah, like you said, the paycheck, you know, it's kind of what we're all keep going back for.

Yeah. But that's pretty cool. So, you know, our topic today and with your kind of specialty and experience with addiction I know Neil has some experience on kind of the. The ups and downs of that. And so, Neil, tell us a little bit about your story and you know, of course, as much detail as you're comfortable sharing, but specifically I think you know, how it related to the fire field and, you know, it wasn't probably necessarily just for the, you know, the hell of it, but more of, you know, maybe related to some of the things you're seeing or trying to deal with or cope with.

But

[00:05:09] Neal: yeah. Excuse me. I think you know what I grew up in a fairly religious home and we never really did a lot till I got to high school and kind of fiddled around with drinking and smoking and all that kind of stuff, and, you know, kind of cleaned up my act. And I also served a mission for the church and then came home met my wife, got married.

And it was, I started in the fire service and you know, I'd, I hadn't really. Done any substance abuse or anything like that for years and years. And I remember we went to fire school one year and you know, one of my buddies was like, Hey, let's have a beer. And I was like, eh, you know, why not? And so I started drinking that, and that night we got pretty tipped over.

It was a rough night. But it was more just for fun, just for the hell of it, you know, like you say. We just kind of started. Doing that. And it seemed like, you know, at that point my wife was working full-time and so was I. And I think when, you know, I had all these four days off in a row, I would have a, I'd started going to the liquor store and get in a bottle of alcohol or whatever, hard liquor, and I'd bring it home and I'd fiddle around with chainsaws out in the garage or do whatever little projects around the house, you know, and.

And it was more mostly just for fun. And then I think I had a, there's a few calls that I went on that were pretty, pretty rough for me. And I didn't really understand having a good support system at the time. And so I think it was, it turned it in from something that was fun into, now this is helping me to feel better in the short run.

And it kind of just spiraled from there. And, You know, I started going out on a lot of fires every summer and I think, you know, something out there, everybody smokes or chews and I was no different. You know, I chewed quite a bit and I only would smoke if we were out there and there was cigarettes around.

But it gets to the point where, you know, you the nicotine was pretty interesting because it's a very different feel as far as like having that. Feeling that need to have it. And it wasn't necessarily needing to have a pouch and, or some, you know, a whole bunch of chewing inside of my mouth. It was more of if I didn't have it accessible like in my car, like it almost gives you a state of panic, which was super weird.

Trying to get away from that. And for a long time, you know, I'd always just have a can of chew in my car just in the little armrest and. And, you know, it was just something I didn't really think about it. I'd driving it down and if I was getting low, I'd just stop and grab another can and eventually, you know, I got to the point where I was like, I really need to quit doing this.

It's a terrible habit, you know? It's not good. I know it's a, any type of stimulant is gonna be, Not good for if I'm, you know, in crisis or close to it or something like that if I had bad, you know, bad thoughts or whatever else. And I never really went to the point of like considering hurting myself.

And I feel like when I would really start struggling with something, I'd reach out here and there with people and I had my brother there. At the station. He was pretty easy to talk to. I could always kinda lean back on him. But when we were on separate shifts, like I said I'd be trying to cope with something and I'd just be home drinking and it would help in the short term.

And it seemed like things just piled on. It wasn't really, it wasn't really getting relief. It wasn't getting any better. And it seemed like I was starting to drink for longer periods of time in the day. You know, and Hannah would go to work and I'd just freaking go out in the garage and, Eight or nine in the morning, I'd started getting tipped over in an empty stomach.

And it was, it worked quick. You know, it started out quick and I could keep a pretty good buzz or pretty good be pretty tipsy all day long, just out there fiddling around. Anyway, I got a lot of stuff done. I built tons of shelves. It was awesome. Sure. But it you know, I kind of, things kind of came to a head eventually.

And that was when Will was probably my oldest boy, he was probably about a year. Close to a year old. And Hannah, she was going, she was wanting to go to England and take Will and meet ha a bunch of her mom's family. And I couldn't get work off and I don't remember if I couldn't get trades or couldn't get shift off or if it was too expensive or whatever it was, but it ended up, she ended up going taking Will.

And so I was just batching it for, you know, two weeks. And in that time period, my, my. Sh fridge was pretty full of fancy liquors. I remember we bought some absent and it was a bad decision anyway. But I remember we went and that was about the time that we shot the movie for the lawnmower fuel and we did that.

And that was pretty dang fun. I was sober for that, just so everybody's aware. But I remember we, I had the old Honda and we tried to roll the Honda driving in and outta cones. There's Miss, me and Brent and we were driving down to Beezer to grab a plate or something. And anyway, Brent come over one night and as a trade he was putting a deadbolt in our front door and.

I remember. And I've been pretty, pretty dang good close friends with Brent for, since we started. We both started at the same time at the fire department there in North Logan as volunteers. And it was the beginning of our relationship. You know, we kind of battled to see who could get to the station, jump on the engine first, and.

To my everlasting dismay. Brent had fire one and I didn't One night and I got on the engine, he kicked me off to go to a fire and I was sad. Now nail's my

[00:10:19] Brent: captain and I've been paying for it ever since.

[00:10:21] Neal: No, but it, I remember that night when we were working on the deadbolt, we were sitting around and you know, it, it's pretty.

Is it caught me way off guard, Brent. He's sitting there working and we're just kind of BSing and outta the blue. He just says, why? Like, I know you don't go to church anymore. Not, you're not religious anymore. He is like what's changed? Or how come you're. Basically he asked me why I'm a piece of crap.

And I was like, you really want, are we really doing this? Really having this talk right now? And I was surprised. And he was like, yeah. He's like, I wanna know what's making you act different? What's, what has changed with you that's made you be made you different? And you know, that was really the first time in, if I don't know how many couple of years that I really.

Like sat back and reflected on me, like, why am I doing the things I'm doing? And looking back on it, my, my family has alcoholism, like bad alcoholism just. There's, I've got a couple ants that are, anyway, I have pretty severe alcoholism in my family, and so I, and I never really thought I was an alcoholic, but looking back, like I had to have a drink every day of my four off and you know, that's kind of textbook alcoholic and and you know, I felt like I was a pretty high functioning alcoholic. Could build shelves, I could tear a chain, saw down and put it back together, whatever. And anyway, that was really the beginning of when I started to look at myself and say, why am I doing this? What is keeping me doing this and not doing it for, just cuz it's fun.

Cuz in my mind I was still thinking, yeah I'm still doing this just cuz it's fun. But that was really, it was Brent kind of, of having. The guts to stand up to a friend and say, Hey, something's changed with you. Let's talk about it. I want you to, I wanna see a, I wanna see some healing. I wanna see something change.

I want what's best for you. And at the time, you know, it's easy to feel like you're being attacked. And you know, with time comes a little bit more clarity and being able to look back at that and say, that was probably one of the biggest, pivotal moments in my life. For me personally, to recover and to begin that recovery process.

And it wasn't overnight, you know, and I can't remember if I was still chewing at that time or not, but I quit chewing and that was super hard. It was, I remember. Every shift I'd be driving, I was working at Station 71 up on campus at the time, and I would just stop at the Foothill Mart there and at the Aggie station on eighth East and grab a can every week.

And I remember the first time I didn't, and it was almost like I was, felt sick like physically ill driving past it and not stopping. And I, and it progressively became easier for me to drive past that station. A service station and not stop and get you and the alcohol like that. It had a quite a harder grip on me.

And it took me years after that experience to actually get to where I could kick the habit. And at the time I was hiding it from my wife and she. I mean, sh I think she knew deep down, but sh we never talked about it. And we didn't communicate really good. But I remember it was probably six months, three months, or six months after Brent, you came over and read me the right act.

It was a while after that I came clean and I told Hannah everything. And you know, I realized at the time that it could have meant a. Change in our relationship as far as like our marriage. And I felt like you know, coming clean and being able to be proactive on that. It took every bit of courage that I had, I guess, to, to be able to do that.

But I was really surprised. Hannah was super understanding, you know, I could feel the disappointment. And at that point she said, well, let's get you better. And you know, from there it things became easier and easier, and it seemed like it was about a year after that there was one. I guess you could say it was one last hurrah that I really got super drunk one night, and it was a DMS conference and I remember I was going down with two, two dudes that I knew didn't drink and I was like, Hey, don't let me drink tonight.

It was just keep an eye on me and it was all I could do. There's one other guy that was there and he poured some fancy vodka in with a white monster and was like, let's taste like hairspray. Try it. So I was like, no. And he's like, try it. No. And finally I was sick of him saying, try it and shoving at my face.

And I tried it and I'm like, you're right. That tastes like aquanet and that's disgusting. And then I was like, well, I've already had some now, so I just poured a bunch of vodka and glass and started sipping on it, or just chugging it. Anyway. Well, you ended up with moonshine. I got super drunk that night and I was drunk until about five o'clock the next afternoon.

And after that I was like, this is stupid. I felt like I. Garbage the whole day. The whole day was pretty much wasted and, you know, I felt like crap. And after that there was one other time that I cracked open a couple beers and it was the day my daughter was born. And that was kind of my, just this little celebration, I guess.

I cracked open a couple beers after I got the boys into bed, and that was the last time I drink. It's been almost nine years. And I think the, one of the hardest things for me, I went to paramedic school with three of my closest friends. And when we went out to dinner we had to go down to Provo for the testing process, and it was a coup, I think it was overnight, went out to dinner.

They all had a beer and. And they had Sam Adams, which is one of my favorites, and one of 'em like pushed it over towards me. He was like, you want some? And I was like, nah, I just wanna smell it. And I brought it over and sniffed it and I was like, yep, it smells delicious. Pushed it back. And he's like, you can have it.

I'm like, no man. I'm, I've been sober for three years. And at that point, that phrase is what changed things for pe for everybody I felt like to where nobody wanted to. Tempted me anymore. Nobody wanted to try to get me to drink anymore, but when I said I've been sober for this long, that was when people stopped and they're like, oh, I'm so sorry.

Like, they're like, I don't, I'm not trying to enable or anything else. And honestly, like there's a lot of times to go by that, I think. Yeah, it'd be nice to kick back with the beer at the end of the night af with dinner or just throw back a couple shots or whatever and just get a nice buzz going, but.

Man it's pretty awesome to be able to say, I've been sober for eight and a half years and I think when, a lot of times when I talk, I'm pretty open about it now. It was always hard for me to talk about it at the time cause it was, I feel like I was being sneakier, I was hiding something. But I feel like now I've had enough healing time.

Enough time to process and think about that. To be able to say, if this helps somebody else to at least evaluate their personal life and look and say, why am I drinking so much? Or Why do I have to have. Pouch and nicotine, or why do I have to do, you know, have whatever stimulant they have or heaven forbid somebody has, you know, an opiate addiction or something like that.

I hope that there's some type of healing or some type of clarity that's, that somebody can get and say, you have to go through hell to be able to heal sometimes. And I feel like, you know, I went through hell and I, luckily I had good friends and I had somebody that was. Close enough to me and felt like they could actually say something.

And you know, Brent, I don't know if you've realized how big of an impact that had on me at the time, and I don't know if it crossed your mind to think that could have compromised our relationship or not. But looking back, I don't know that I would be brave enough to say something to a friend like that, but that it changed my life.

It really did.

[00:17:54] Brent: Well, I think what people don't know about that story is I totally jacked up the deadbolt, and so I had to get the attention off of me. So I had to put it back on you. Now, I think you know, I really appreciate you sharing all that because I think what, you know, a lot of people probably feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, Brandon, but that they're the only ones.

They must be the only ones that have, are suffering from an addiction like this or having to turn for to these certain coping mechanisms or whatever. But I think when people hear the story that's probably a lot more common than we think. I don't know. And so maybe help us dissect a little bit, kind of what.

What Neil shared with us and kind of what, you know, how you see it from your perspective.

[00:18:33] Brandon: Yeah. So first of all, congratulations on your success and what you've worked for. Thank you. Back in the day when I used to work in the drug court program, there used to be a judge, judge Wilmore, and he would say there was nothing more important than someone getting clean.

There is nothing more important that can happen today than someone controlling their addiction. And so, you know, we want to celebrate that as an example of what we can accomplish. And there's some elements to this story that I wanna highlight. One, you had peers that you could communicate with that could see you.

Oftentimes with addiction, we find ourselves isolating from other people. Why? Because we understand that what we're doing isn't socially acceptable. It's appearing as a weak behavior. We know there's a stigma with addiction, and so we do all we can to hide it. And so with that hiding, it increases that shame factor, and the fear of getting help means being found out, which, if you understand addiction, the core of almost all people's addiction is this fear of being seen completely.

All your vulnerabilities, all of your weaknesses, the thing that you're trying to avoid must become open at some point, unknown, and sometimes facing that. Closet. That skeleton in the closet of the thing that's most disturbing to us is a really difficult task when you get into the substances or whatever the addiction is.

It doesn't have to be substances. All of us have our short term coping mechanisms. They can be pornography or they can be drugs or alcohol, or even just buying things or we all have stuff that we do. Everyone has habit behavior we try to use to cope. Some of them are good talking to our families. Even, you know, going out and working out different things, some of 'em have less of a consequence.

The ones that we really start to see that have real negative consequences are the ones that start changing your motivations when you start hiding things and looking for ways to escape. So you can use them to engage in those behaviors. We start to see 'em pulling emotions apart. When you think about what happens with addiction, we go from being a very thoughtful future tense.

Thinking person, oh, retirement and my kids and people and all these different aspects. But the further along you get into addiction, it's like you get into a hole. The hole is a temporal satisfaction kind of mindset, where before and other times you're very thoughtful and very future oriented across time and space.

But when you get into that addiction mindset, The only thing that matters is right now, the next 10 minutes, what do I have? Do I need to survive the next 10 minutes? And so the common thing here is the presence of pain. Pain is the entire category of anything that's uncomfortable. Pain could be a thorn in your foot, or it can be judgment of our peers.

It could be a self-esteem thing. I mean, pointed a direction. You can find something that's a source of pain that we can be experiencing when that pain becomes significant enough. Where we combine a addictive behavior. And the addictive behavior are the ones that are the most troublesome, are the ones that are most addictive.

The ones that are most addictive are the fastest acting. Substances behaviors. Pornography is very addictive. Cocaine, meth, some of these other substances, they're very addictive cuz they're so quick acting. And what happens is that we become so easily. Changed and it's so accessible and it's so repeatable.

It becomes a trusted friend to try and get us out of those mind states. So the work that we do in therapy is to help get out of that appetite driven moment to moment thinking brain. It takes friends. It takes therapists sometimes. Sometimes it takes having accountability partners and the utmost is to be honest with yourself and other people in your life that you're going through this.

And yes, we all go through some version of this. All this have habits. Maybe not all lend into some kind of behavior that's addiction, but we all have things that we do. We all have. Fears of being seen in our true self, in our true worries, our fears, and there are places we can go to get those things addressed.

The great thing about therapy is we're paid to be quiet. You know, we are paid to, to hear things and understand and connect and hear the true ideas of your soul, and it stays in that room. And that's probably similar to what you experience in the peer support groups that you have. It's someone that can hear those things that's going on in your life.

And again, it is, it's across the board. There's every direction, every person has struggles and trials, and. There is addictive potential there and it, you can be a healthy person and come from a good home, good lifestyle, good background, but if you have a series of experiences that are difficult, unmanageable then, and you accompany that with some kind of addictive behavior, you've now made the perfect trap for addiction to occur and ease.

As we sit here today thinking we're maybe okay. All of us without regular communication with others, addressing what our emotions are, our experiences, our traumas. If we don't address those things, we easily could become into those traps of addiction just like anybody else. Even after being in recovery, we have to be vigilant and being aware and connecting with each other again, which is why peer support and something like that is so effective.

If you're standing in front of people and you see them enough. You can tell when somebody's off, when something isn't the way it should be, or you just feel it. And so, you know. Kudos for those who can say something and approach people even there are hard times and having the courage to, to discuss those kinds of things is so huge.

So yeah, there's it's common. It's everywhere. And it, and the great thing is there's more resources today than there ever has been. There's more therapies that can be helpful. There are emerging. Techniques like emdr a r t, that can help desensitize some of those early tendencies and cravings and urges.

Sometimes we need to go back and figure out what some of the seed emotional trials are, traumas and kind of clear those. And you also need a program of accountability and a peer group that you can address your. Successes and when you're not doing so well sure. Be accountable too. So, you know, there's a lot there.

So getting in front of people, talking about what's going on, being able to feel. What the trials are, the struggles, you know, that's where we can come in. That's where the peer support can come in. But it's a true fight. It's a it's amazing when you see someone be successful managing their addiction.

It's a reason to celebrate and for those who can be open about it. I think you sent me a, an example of your podcast Yeah. Of the other gentleman that Yeah. Shared his addiction publicly. And I have huge respect for those who can share what their addictions are. Because it sends a message to everyone else.

It's not just me. It's not just me that suffers through this issue. It's a common thing. Yeah.

[00:26:00] Brent: Do you find that when people are more open about it, like that, it kind of takes the power away from, I feel like sometimes, even if it's not addiction, but even if it's just some of our traumatic memories, but the more we keep that to ourselves, it just seems like it gets exaggerated and exaggerated.

But the moment you put it to words, It just seems to, I don't know. Bring it down a few

[00:26:21] Brandon: notches anyway. Well, if you could just think of goal setting. You know, one of the first mistakes people make in setting a goal is they keep it to themselves. They keep their ideas, their wants and their desires to themselves.

Why is that less effective? Because you can lie to yourself. You can easily quit your own goals. You can easily go against your plans, your values, whatever. But when you talk to someone and you tell 'em about, this is what I need, this is what's going on, it becomes open real. Now you have accountability people that can help you.

Most effective programs for recovery are those that happen in teams. Groups where they have partners. Instead of being one brain going through ups and downs of emotional trial and triggers, you have multiple brains working through those issues. When people that you know you're in recovery, they can help you instead of hinder you.

They can be there to help you be clear about your thinking when you may not be when you're triggered. Yeah,

[00:27:20] Brent: and I think that's right back to kind of Neil's story about the. The version with that tasted like hairspray versus when he started letting him know, Hey, I'm on a. Road of recovery. I think as soon as people recognize that, I realize that like they want to help.

Especially I feel like most first responders, that's our world, right? We want to be on the helping side, not on the problem making side. And so the moment you kind of let them into that, I feel like yeah, there's a pretty good support group from the guys. And one thing I wanted to touch on from Neil's story that I think is applicable to or perhaps applicable to guys on the department right now, as.

Recognizing the problem, right? Like, like Neil, with your story at what, and looking back now, hindsight's 2020, but at what point do you feel like it was a problem and what point, how much further down the road did it become recognizable to you as a problem?

[00:28:11] Neal: You know, I think it's easy to. Lie to yourself about whether or not it's a problem.

I think I remember going to the liquor store and getting like four bottles of whiskey and a couple bottles of rum and thinking, this is awesome. I'm gonna have enough for. You know, a couple weeks stashed in my garage or wherever. And I remember thinking, you know, on, as I was sitting there checking out, I thought, is this excessive?

And I thought, no, I should probably go get some more. And I think that was partially me, you know, lying to myself. But I think in deep down, You know, I knew that it was not great. And growing up in a religious family, there's always that aspect of you're doing something shady or sneaky or something you shouldn't be doing.

So there's always that little bit of guilt in there. But, you know, at the same time I was thinking, I'm a grownup. I can make my own decisions and I can have a drink if I want to. And it's, you know, it's my choice. And I think that when. Oh, there was another person that we worked with at the time, they don't work at Logan anymore, but I remember running into them and they had a huge black eye, huge shiner.

I was like, Hey, what happened? They're like, well, Might've been just changing a light bulb and slipped and fell, and I kind of gave 'em the eye and was like, is that all that happened? You just slipped and fell. And they kind of got that grin on their face. And I was like, okay. And I remember thinking, I don't want to get that tipped over.

I don't want end up like that and have to have something I have to lie about or try to explain my way out of. But really, I think when I quit lying to myself was. You know, because the other thing I had that crutch, and I don't know if you remember or not, you're like, well, why do you, why are you drinking?

I was like, well, I'm drinking. I've got this problem with God. He's allowing poor, horrible things to happen to kids and I don't like it. And you know, you're like, well, why do you think that is? And you kind of just threw it back on me. And I was like, well, I know what the missionary answer is. And you're like, what is it?

You kept pushing and finally I like went and. Looked up and I remember right where it's at, but I read a piece of scripture and I thought, Okay, well that makes perfect sense why God allows bad things to happen to the innocent. And then I didn't have a crutch to lean on. I didn't have an excuse anymore.

And I think once I, like I had that excuse for so long and I chose not to address it. I just had it there as an excuse. Once I actually had to address it and realize that it was a dumb excuse, that's really when I thought to myself, I have a problem. And then I remember shortly after that I looked at like the past three months at how much money I had wasted on substance, and it was phenomenal.

I could have bought a new PlayStation with that money. I probably could have bought like a truck full of Mountain Dew or something. But really that was about the time I started thinking, Hey, this is unnecessary. This is outta hand. I've got a problem.

[00:31:08] Brent: Yeah. And you know, for you Brandon, like when people come and to see you and are finally ready to start turning that corner or turn around, usually, like how far deep are they into it and what difference would it make if they would've come to you?

A year earlier or months earlier, or, you know, I like how often do you see that and think, man, if you would've saw me a year ago, this process would be this long, but now you're this far deep into it, this is gonna be a little bit of a road.

[00:31:34] Brandon: Yeah. Obviously the earlier the better, but the, probably the number one need in our terms of recovery is personal buy-in.

The person has to be ready. There's probably a time you maybe were thinking I should probably get some help, but if you weren't ready, it doesn't

[00:31:52] Neal: really work. Yeah, I wasn't ready. When Brent came over and talked to me, I was like, there's no way I'm gonna be trying to

[00:31:59] Brandon: recover. Yeah. Most addiction, when it's somebody else pushing for the change, You just get lots of resistance personal because one, we all have this, you know, three year old in this, I'll do it myself.

You know, we don't want anybody to help us. We can do it by ourselves. And then there's the other part that says, you can take something away. I'm gonna hold onto it harder. Right? But with addiction, life is a terrible, but a very effective teacher. It tells us where we're making mistakes. When we get into this addiction cycle, the things we're doing are causing pain.

They're causing dis. Disappointment ourselves, failures in our roles that we live in. And so, yes, the longer we go, the worse it's gonna become. I hope anybody who's listening or watching this can think, well, what is the symptoms I have? Well, if you're hiding your behavior, you're hiding your addictions.

If it's causing you to be dysfunctional in your roles as a, as a. Family member or your colleague or work if you're hiding it and having to lie about it. These are some common symptoms if you are drinking in the morning or using early in the day, if you have developed tolerance to a significant level, these are all symptoms that it's becoming a problem.

And I would encourage anybody who may think they have a problem, get in to see somebody. There's resources available, especially for the first responders, and there's different programs available to get in front of somebody to get some help and see it from a clear set of eyes. And those who are there to help you will help you identify what the real issues are, the real concerns.

And while the addiction behavior is a problem. And there are. Issues that have to be overcome, like triggers and your body's natural tendency to want and crave for something that it's been adjusted to having, that's a unique, and it's a habit problem on steroids. It's a difficult challenge in itself.

But if we can take care of the precursor stuff, the things that are, the traumas, the, it could be past history kinds of stuff. It could be family issues, it could be day-to-day trauma kinds of problems or just failure. It could be anything. If there are the seeds to these emotional states that cause us to be triggered, we want to address those.

We want to get to the heart of those things. Take the energy out of the. The addiction. You know, you think about the addiction behavior, it's really a symptom of another problem. So yes, we do need to address the behavior. We do want that to stop cuz it's harmful. But you also wanna get to the why.

What's the issue that's preceding it? What's contributing to it, and let's take care of it. So it's no longer an issue. And again, it can take some time. The more significant, the more time you've been in addiction and engaging this behavior, it may take a little more work and may take a bigger team than just one individual.

It may take a team of individuals to be a part of your process of change, but it, there is success in all those levels. We want to get to it as soon as possible.

[00:35:07] Brent: Yeah, I think that's great. And I love how you said you know, a lot of times if not all the time, the addiction is the symptom, you know, and so often it gets all the attention and so we don't really.

Focus on the why too much. And you know, our whole job is treating symptoms. But how frustrated do we get with some frequent flyers that are always falling or always calling and it's like, you know, we're only gonna put this bandaid on so many times. Like, you really need to figure this out.

You know, like, this isn't what 9 1 1 is for, or whatever, you know, and yet for ourselves, we're just as happy to, you know, keep repeating and and trying to treat the symptom and not go to the core of the issue. But,

[00:35:47] Brandon: and for many people, it's not just one thing. It could be a series of things, it could be a lifetime of things.

And so it really could use some assessment to see what's behind it.

[00:35:57] Brent: Yeah. And, you know, and I think that's where it comes back to seeing somebody's professionally trained. To give that assessment. Right? Yeah. How, again, and I think we've mentioned this before too, but it's like, how often do we go on scene and there's a helper that isn't very helpful Right.

But they're assessing and trying to do all the things, but the second somebody's trained there then things start to, we start to make progress. Right? And even how many times do we go and there is a trained person, but they're out of their element. You know, some doctor on scene or a nurse, but this isn't the hospital.

And so. They're trying to be helpful, but sometimes it's like, you need to let us work in our environment right now to Yeah. To get the best outcome. And so I think you know, for anybody who's watching, there's no harm in seeing somebody even if you don't think you have a problem, but you're just trying to assess that why.

Right. Like, and just in, while the weed's small and you know, it wouldn't hurt to get a new perspective even if you go see somebody just one time. Right. And so maybe we can just kind of wrap up. Up today with kind of your guys' final kind of 2 cents anybody's watching this episode of kind of, if they're have been in this mode of on the fence of do I have a problem, do I not, you know, kind of what you would tell them and encourage them to do and you know, same for you, Neil is just kind of, if you could go back and tell yourself nine years ago, you know, something kind of, what would that advice be?

[00:37:19] Neal: I think you know, taking that first step is always the scariest part about it. You know, and having somebody help you take that first step is always an option, but getting out there Just trying to evaluate yourself. I encourage anybody that's listening to the podcast or watching it, ask yourself a couple questions.

Ask yourself, is there any substance that I use and I feel like I have to have it first thing in the morning or any part of the day after dinner, whatever it is. And you know, it could be as simple as caffeine or nicotine, and it could be as complex as how you're saying some of those other addictive things, cocaine, meth, whatever it is.

And say, is this destructive? Is it bad for my health? And chances are the answer is yes. But the hardest part for anybody, I think, especially for me, was admitting that there is a problem, and taking that time to evaluate yourself and ask that question, what am I gonna do from here? What are the, what's the first step I have to make now?

Or what's the next step I have to make to progress instead of continue to digress? And I've, you know, I had a good friend once tell me that in life you're either progressing or digressing. You can't just go steady. You can try to go steady. But chances are you're either just slowly, gradually climbing up or going down.

And it's, and I think it, it works in all aspects of life, but if as long as you're trying to improve and taking a step forward. There's people out there that are willing to help. There's people out there that are willing to listen. If you're afraid to go see a therapist I've been to therapy a couple times and it's really helped me get a better perspective.

And if nothing else it's just that stigma is always there for me too, that I don't need any help. I'm that little kid that I'm gonna do this by myself, I'm gonna recover by myself. But it does help. And I think if somebody's asking you, you want me to make the appointment with the therapist, you want me to call a therapist?

It's probably because you need to go see a therapist and you need to talk to somebody. And I think, like I said, the hardest part is admitting that and taking that first step.

[00:39:22] Brandon: Very good. So with specifically addiction, you know, we wanna address the stressors. Everyone has stress. Life is stress.

Relationships are demanding. Our jobs are demanding. We're involved with so many different things. We all encounter different forms of stress, and we're all at different points of our ability to manage that stress on different days. Today, I might be on top of my game and I might need some help from you guys.

Tomorrow it might be you that might need some help. And if you can understand that each of us have these ups and down moments, that's why a team environment is so important. When you have a group of people that see you. Not everybody's gonna be on their game every day. Not everybody's gonna be resilient to the same things every day.

And so when those things come up that get to us, No matter where they come from, to have someone to talk to to be involved with, to be heard, to process those things, it diffuses the emotions that really make the trap of addiction become. More of an issue if you're working in addiction or living in addiction, or maybe you think you might be in addictive behavior, we can still address it.

The earlier the better, the sooner we can get to understand what the compulsive behavior is. And understand what's behind it. We can do something about it. Addiction is not a requirement to be, it doesn't need to be lethal. It can be addressed. And the things we have in place today are better than it's ever been.

We have a culture that's looking for help to, we have resources to be able to provide that help. We have training in different therapies that are more effective than they've ever been. We've come a long way since the 1930s and Otis in the. You know, the Andy Griffith show. You know, we've come a long way since those days and there's some really effective treatments that we can engage in and help people.

So, I would encourage anyone, there's plenty of therapists in the area. There's it's anonymous. It doesn't get reported back to your work if you come to see us and we get, we'll get you some help. Yeah.

[00:41:27] Brent: Yeah. And you said that earlier too, about the resources. We've never had more than we have today.

And I appreciate ending on that note because it's so true. And, you know, I'd go as far as even to say with our peer team, you know, it's never been as strong or as involved as it is right now. And so, you know, for anybody, he needs a little bit of help with that first step. Like Neil said, like, we're happy to help make that first appointment for you and, or make that call or just be that first listening ear to.

To help you evaluate if you need some extra help. You know, the peer team certainly doesn't have all the answers, but I think we can help point in the right direction and that same privacy and confidentiality goes across the board. But I think the best part about the fire department has always been the comradery and your brothers and sisters on the department.

And so I think, you know, I'd. I don't know what it's like necessarily for a regular person, nine to five job, but they're probably not as noticed as much by their peers, I'd say. As you are with the fire department, the guys are and girls that you stay at the station with for 48 hours and respond on calls.

They're gonna be the first ones to notice that difference. And I think that's not a bad thing. That's a wonderful thing that we have this resource in our jobs with the people that we work with, that care about us, and we hope that yeah, people will utilize it so, thank both of you for doing this today.

Thank you, Neil, for sharing and going through that and for your expertise brand. We hope somebody's gonna set up some appointments with you to get some help.

[00:42:49] Brandon: So I've got some openings, so let's call.

[00:42:51] Brent: Okay. Thanks

[00:42:52] Neal: guys. Okay, thank you.