TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Brent: So today we're here with our two favorite guests of the day, Diego and Juliet. Diego's with Logan City Fire, and Juliet is a clinician for families and couples here in Logan, north Logan even. So let's just get started with a little bit of introductions. Julie, why don't you kick us off and just tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your practice and kind of.

Maybe what got you into doing family therapy.

[00:00:26] Juliet: Sure. Okay. Thanks for inviting me to be here today, Brent. I am over here in North Logan, not too far away with Fortitude, family, couples and family therapy. So we fortitude has been in North Logan for just we're coming up a year under the fortitude name, but I've been working in the valley for about five and six years as a marriage and family therapist.

So I love working with Couples and parents, and of course individuals a lot in a variety of circumstances. And so it's really great to be working with the first responders and the unique challenges that they face and that their families face also. So thanks for having

[00:01:03] Brent: me. Yeah, thanks so much for being here.

Tell us a little bit, cuz I know that there's lots of different areas you can specialize in therapy and what made you kind of go the. The

[00:01:11] Juliet: family route. Yeah, the family route looks at individual functioning through the whole system. So that's just kind of aligns with my worldview where a psychologist or a social worker might look at individual functioning.

Through an individualistic lens. I really look at the systemic lens. So I'm gonna look at how our families and how they interact with each other affects our individual mental health as well as our jobs and our coworkers and all of those systems that we're in and how that how that influences our mental health.

So that's, it's really just my worldview, I guess, is why I was interested in studying marriage and family therapy, because I think that we. Are not individuals. We are relational people. We're relational creatures, and so we need each other. Yeah, I

[00:02:01] Brent: I love that. And you know, it goes right in line with kind of, part of our mission statement is what we do at, with firefighter support is mental wellness, physical health and human connection.

And I think Awesome. That last one is so, I mean, if you had to pick one, it's like if you have good human connection, it seems like the other ones. Almost take care of themselves, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And so I think that's really great. Diego, give us a little background on you and kind of anything that would help us get to know you a little bit

[00:02:27] Diego: better.

Cool. So my name's Diego. Thanks for having me. I've been with Logan Fire since 2014. I started volunteering in 2005 for a local fire department and I just loved it. So I decided to make this move. I've really enjoyed it Every. The on shift is something new, which is right up my ADHD alley.

So I really enjoy it. We have great people and it's really an honor to be able to help and be there for our brothers and sisters. So, I think it's great. And I think what we're doing here is amazing. So, yeah, I'm grateful for the ability to participate and for clinicians to, to be involved with this.

So, I am, I've got two boys. And I, I am divorced. I've got I think for four, four years. So there's some added challenges there, you know, but my my boy's mom and I are able to co-parent really well. So that's been really helpful for the kids. And I recently, as of probably two years ago, I took a huge interest in parenting and how to become a better parent as kind of as I dove into.

You know, my own trauma and the roots thereof. You know, I start learning about yeah, just what I can do to be able to help my kids have, you know, a better outcome than than maybe some of us have had. So, yeah, I think this is awesome and I'm happy to be here.

[00:03:40] Brent: Yeah, no, again, appreciate you guys taking the time cuz all of the day and coming over isn't always easy, but and I don't know, well, I know Diego would never admit to this, but he's almost A living legend of parenting on our fire department.

So, quick story, and I don't know if you even know that this is being widely spread, but I've one of your previous crew members, Paul Olson, tells a story about how he's going on a hike with his kids. And he would always get frustrated cause they were just all over the place and not sticking to the trail.

And and then he talks about, yeah, how Diego gave him this advice. Hey Paul, just let 'em go wherever they want. You know, like if they wanna go straight up the mountain, let 'em go straight up the mountain and then he on their next experience or whatever, they did that. And Paul just talks about how much of a game changer that was to just for him to let go of just that little thing.

And then that memory with his boys. Was awesome. And so there you go. You've already impacted the whole department. That story is keeps getting spread. But and following your Instagram page too and just all the effort that you've taken and putting together these kind of tips for dads. Cuz not that dads need extra help, but they probably need a lot of extra Yeah.

[00:04:51] Juliet: We all need helps moms and dads. Yeah.

[00:04:54] Brent: Well it seems like, and you know, Maybe let's start right there, Juliet, with what are, would you, how would you define maybe the role of parents? Like, what is their job? You know, and to give a little context that I think sometimes we revert to my job is to protect any bad thing from ever happening to my kids.

You know? And even though that sounds a little silly, as I say it out loud, but our actions seem to manifest that's my only role. You know, when they get hurt, I do this. When they get in trouble, I do this. Or if they. Speak outta line or say something rude or whatever. My job is to prevent bad things.

Right. But help correct that poor way of thinking. Yeah, that is,

[00:05:32] Juliet: that is an impossibility, first of all. But really, your job, our job as parents is not to. Protect our children from experiencing bad things or having hard feelings. Our job is to be a safe place for them to to experience those hard things.

Right. So, I, I think, and you guys can share me what you feel on this, but I think that the parent is, Just really you know, gonna be that safe place to discover, to help our children as they grow and discover who they are going to be. So, your story is a great example of going up the mountain.

We can't control exactly how they're going to get up the mountain, but we can Sure. Help them, you know, navigate it safely, I guess.

[00:06:12] Diego: Yeah. You know what's interesting? When we do things like go on hikes and we have kind of our own agenda, right? Of what we want to accomplish and what we believe is gonna be the best of our family, and oftentimes that might not be the case, right?

We may want to go on this hike and stick to this trail, but the kids are like, yeah, I've been on this trail before, but like, look at that little one. Or, Hey, look at this stream or this rock, or just let them have fun, right? I read, I heard this quote the other day about how our kids are, you know, we're not to like create our own version of them.

We need to let them do their own thing and support them as they do that, you know, safely. Obviously. But yeah they're gonna have their own personality, their own thing. We don't need a carbon copy, you know, we just need to support them in what they want to do. So

[00:06:58] Brent: Where would you guys put the balance of.

Allowing them to kind of do their own thing, but at the same time, like you're the parent and you have to, you know, have those teaching moments of, Hey, that probably wasn't the best decision, or maybe we shouldn't, you know, jump from the couch and knee our brother in the stomach, or, you know. Like, cuz you know, I think there's that room you want to give them to explore.

But then also like, Where do you draw the line of discipline and so that you don't have just totally unruly children?

[00:07:30] Juliet: Yeah, I don't, I think that line is constantly evolving and changing as parents we. Kind of lose our our our influence, our circle of influence changes throughout parenthood, right?

So when we have our newborn, we really get to control everything that they're exposed to and as they get older. And if for sure, you know, it happens a lot faster than we think, even as they're getting into school. Schools and everything, we are circle of influence changes. And I think we have to be willing to recognize when that's changing and to not continue to try to you know, like you said, to just dictate what these little people or these bigger people are doing.

So I think it evolves. I think that line changes. I don't know if that really answers your question of when you, of course we need to To keep them safe. So I think that's where discipline comes in, but

[00:08:21] Brent: yeah, and it's probably different for per child too, right? For sure. It's not like there's one line that makes sense for everybody, but maybe it's just a constant pursuit of trying to find the balance.

I don't know. Yeah, and

[00:08:32] Juliet: You have. Three now. Right. So

[00:08:34] Brent: yeah. 10 year old, six year old, and three month old.

[00:08:36] Juliet: So, so you've already, you're already learning how children are also different from each other and what worked on your oldest is not necessarily the same with your second Yes. Son, right? Yes.

We're

[00:08:45] Brent: learning the hard way every day. Yeah. Yeah. That's not the same. Yeah, for sure. So how old are your boys, Diego? Nine and five. Nine and five. And so how's the dynamic between them and how, kind of go off that a little bit. How different are they and what have you learned from your nine year old to your five-year-old?

[00:09:01] Diego: Yeah, they're very different. Very different. My, nine year old is maybe not quite as active, you know, a little bit more impulsive at times. My five year old is super active, but is able to kind of manage emotions a little better than the nine year old. So that there's kind of some different.

Tactics I have to take with each one of 'em. You know, the older one I've gotta be a little more careful with because his emotions run a little more a little warmer than the five year olds. And so, you know, like I said they both have their own little personality, their own way of being.

But as far as discipline goes I think there's some really important things that we can do when addressing something that we don't. We don't like, or we don't approve of we can use you know, like things like positive opposites. And you're probably familiar with positive opposites. You know, instead of saying, you know, if they, if your kids repeatedly asking you to, Hey, can I play on the tablet?

Can I play on the Xbox? And they've already used all their screen time for the day. You know, instead of saying no over again just give 'em a positive opposite and say, Hey, you know what, why don't we go do. X, Y, z and give 'em a list of things. Why don't you to go with your little brother to the park?

Why don't we go for a bike ride? Why don't we go for a walk? Why don't we do some art? You know, rather than hearing that constant no. And making them feel smaller every time. Let's just give 'em other options. And you know, if we have to correct a behavior They only need to hear it once. We may feel like they need to hear it over and over and over again.

[00:10:28] Brent: I was just gonna argue with that. I'm pretty sure my kids have to hear it at least 10 times before it enters their brain.

[00:10:33] Diego: Well, we feel that way, right? Like we might feel like if I don't say this 10 times, they're never gonna get it. You know? When in truth all they need to hear it is one time and then we drop it.

And if we do that over and over again, it will eventually, the behavior will correct us off. I promise. We. Yeah we saw a therapist for one of my kids and she actually put my ex and I through a class first. To teach us how to correct behavior because there's no way you can teach a kid to fix that behavior in one hour sessions, you know, a week for six weeks.

So we went through the class and we learned a whole bunch of things that have helped change certain behaviors. And tho those are just a couple of things that were super effective in being able to make that change.

[00:11:18] Juliet: Yeah. I love that you pointed that out because I think that parenting is more about the parent's behavior than it is about the child's behavior.

And I think we kind of flip that a lot. We are constantly thinking about, what is my child doing or what is, you know, what's, what are they doing wrong? And the more we can focus on our own behavior and regulate our own emotions and. You know, develop our own emotional regulation skills, then we will be able to co-regulate with our children, which is how children learn to regulate themselves.

So, I loved it.

[00:11:50] Diego: Yeah, you're,

[00:11:51] Brent: yeah, it, I just wanted to drop my kids off at the therapist and have 'em fixed. Sorry, like,

[00:11:55] Diego: come on. Yeah, that was my initial thought. It didn't work. Dang it.

[00:11:59] Juliet: No, sorry. You got it. You gotta put in the work also.

[00:12:02] Diego: So if you think of it this way if you want to fix their behavior towards whatever, you know, Work on fixing your reaction to that behavior and the problem will solve itself over time.

Cuz oftentimes our reaction to that behavior only reinforces the behavior. So work on your reaction and how you're reacting to that thing and maybe fix that, you know, take a step back and look in the mirror a little bit. As to how you're handling whatever it is that they're doing. Yeah, absolutely.

Probably

[00:12:31] Brent: even including, not reacting at all. Right, exactly. Like I think in one of your little episodes you talked about the behavior we ignore as often the good things they're doing because we're sitting back to ourself and Yeah. Oh, our, my boys are sharing today. They're not fighting. This is so nice.

But we kind of keep that thought to ourselves. Versus pointing out to them like, Hey guys, I really appreciate how much you guys are getting along. But the second they start fighting, it's like, oh, you two better stop that right now. Yeah, we're on video games for a month. Yeah.

[00:12:57] Juliet: You know, negative reinforcement is still reinforcement, right?

When we are really giving a lot of attention to the negative behavior, we are still reinforcing it. So we might want to ignore some of that behavior and really reinforce the behavior that we want to see more of.

[00:13:10] Brent: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, you know, we kind of started in, and it's almost seems like parenting is just this vague, daunting task with no real guidelines.

But I love the the positive opposites, the, you know, and paying attention to the reinforcement behavior. What are some other things that, that you guys have found that are like, almost like little tips or tricks that, you know, just little tweaks to our chain, like our behaviors or parenting tips that you've found have worked really well?

[00:13:38] Juliet: So I, I think that seeing parenting as a relationship and less about a task is kind of what I heard you start to say. I say maybe that's the paradigm shift that we need to change a little bit. That there's not a perfect way You know that we didn't, we're not doing it right, but we are looking towards that relationship and what's gonna be healthy for them and for us.

But I know you want more specific little tips. No,

[00:14:03] Brent: well, and even that, right? That's just the whole mindset change. And I uhhuh, I hadn't connected that until you just said it, but yeah. I think when you look at parenting as a task, it's a never ending checklist, uhhuh, that you're never gonna

[00:14:13] Juliet: get done, that you could do it right or wrong.

And that's. Really distressing. And so,

[00:14:18] Brent: but yeah, just looking at his relationship, that's an ongoing that's not necessarily black and white. But how is this relationship progressing? Is it moving towards a healthier place or a. Right? And so, yeah, I think that's that in itself is a good way to just shift our thinking about how we view ourselves as parents.

Yeah. And that's, you know, that's probably one of my biggest things and I think probably a lot of guys are similar on the department is you know, sometimes as firefighters, I feel like we, we see things that are hard on. At work, but and we associate maybe shame or guilt or trauma with some of those things.

But man, when I look back on my experiences, the most shame and guilt I have are associated with my parenting. You know, and I've been short with my kids, or I've, you know, got home from shift and was just totally distant and they were excited to tell me about their day at school and I just wasn't ready for it or whatever.

And I. Didn't react appropriately like those lived with me, I feel like, for a lot longer than almost any call I've been on. You know, I don't know if you can relate there, but yeah, for sure. But it's tough, you know, and I think if you want to, you have that desire to be a good parent and, but then you feel like you're always falling short and you just kind of have this dark cloud of shame that's following you around as a dad, you know?

Yeah.

[00:15:34] Diego: You, you know, the whole relationship thing that's very important because, Honestly, I believe that our kids want nothing more than to have a good relationship with us. And it's kind of up to us to make sure that happens, right? It's up to us to help cultivate it and push it along.

And, you know, some of the things that, that we can do to help that is, like you were saying, you know, we may a home from a shift and we're just exhausted, you know, and done for, so. Before we can help fill anybody else's bucket, we gotta fill our own. So take your time to, to rest, to do whatever it is that you do for, self-care, to be able to fill your bucket so that you can be there for 'em.

And another thing that we need to be conscious of is when they do come up to us and tell us something super exciting in their life, you know, Oftentimes, if it means a lot to them, they're gonna be super excited. They're gonna be tugging on your arm. They're gonna be just waiting to get it out and like, let's check in with ourselves and see how we're reacting when they do that.

Like, are we getting down to their level really listening and putting ourselves in their story and really valuing what they're saying because that's what's gonna increase. The health of that relationship and increase that bond, which is what they're after. Right? And the more we do this over time, later on in life in high school or college, or when they're adults, they're gonna, they're gonna feel like they have that safe space to come back to and say, Hey, this just happened.

You know, I need some help, or I need advice. And I want nothing more than that than, you know, for my kids to be able to confide in me like that in, in the future. So the time is now to make that happen.

[00:17:18] Brent: Yeah. I think you know, like an example I think of with that for me is you know, my kids love playing Fortnite.

And sometimes that's a little trigger for me. It's like, man, you've been playing Fortnite all day, or but, you know, they'll ha they'll make some accomplishment in the game that took a long time or was like, they've been working on it and they're just so excited to tell me like, Hey, I got to level whatever in Fortnite, or I got this character.

And my first reaction is always like, oh my gosh, it's just a video game. You know? But you know, just reacting differently and not maybe setting the video game accident. Aspect aside and just be like, Hey, you were working hard on something and you did it. Yeah. Like, good job, you know, that's awesome.

And show me I wanna see this character or what's, you know, tell me what's cool about it or and, you know, in fact I remember so little. Backstory. So, Juliet's husband and I used to be in a young men's group together with the leaders, and I remember Spencer telling this story about his kids where, you know, he wanted, sometimes he wanted to go outside and play or do something with them, but I.

Sometimes they just wanted him to watch them play video games. And I remember him telling me like, man, sometimes I, like, initially that was so hard because I wanted to go out and do something or do something else. Anything else. Right. But I wanted, it was important to him to do something that they wanted to do.

And if, you know what, if they want me to just watch them play video games, I'm gonna do it. I'll be their cheerleader and that's always stuck with me as a cool thing to set aside kind of our own agenda and just, you know, Fully immerse ourselves in their world and what they're all about.

But so guys, we've always been shining examples.

[00:18:49] Juliet: Yeah. Showing interest in the things that they're interested in is gonna pay off through throughout your relationship throughout the lifetime. Like Diego was saying that as the, as our children age, we'll already have that, you know, that foundation built that they'll keep turning back to

[00:19:05] Diego: us.

[00:19:05] Brent: And how, you know, and I can't remember where I heard this, but you can tell me if it's accurate or not, but it seems like our relationship with our kids proportionally is gonna be as an adult more than any other time, right? Like and so, but the foundation, so if it's like, if you do the foundation wrong as a kid, then your relationship with them as an adult is much harder to kinda.

Develop. Right. Is that true

[00:19:28] Diego: or

[00:19:28] Juliet: Yes. Yes. We can't emphasize the importance of child development. Right? We know that it really does affect all of our lives, our, you know, our childhood. I don't want that to turn into us feeling like, oh I've failed, or, oh, darn it, I've already messed up. So I think the time is now, I think you used that word.

It's now wherever you've, you know, you're coming from, there's always you know, to start building that relationship now. So I, if your children are young, yes. Let's recognize how important that is. If they're not, let's still recognize that we can change. As a therapist, I have to believe in change, or my job is really unfulfilling.

So I, I'm an advocate for change, but.

[00:20:06] Diego: Yeah, we can get there. Yeah.

[00:20:08] Brent: I appreciate putting that change and hope aspect back into it because, do you have any of course being sensitive to any details or whatever, but any experiences or stories you could share where you just kind of were able to witness that change take place in a family?

Or,

[00:20:23] Juliet: Yes, I feel it's an honor to work with families because I do see that I do see that change. And so, you know, and I would love to hear, I would love for Diego to tell us more about how he's been able to co-parent, because I think that's awesome that you feel like you and your your boy's mom are able to do that together.

So, it, you know, I can't, I'm not thinking of a specific example right now except for that As we as adults are self-reflective and and willing to change themselves, I think that they can change the family systems. You know, your, the fire fighting field is a service filled and parenting is also a service service industry.

So you guys are, he headed in the right direction to be able to be able to be really great servants for your homes, and I think that's awesome.

[00:21:08] Diego: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's as far as the co-parenting thing I don't know, it seems to a lot of people, especially like other friends that are divorced, that what we have is kind of a fairytale.

They're maybe a little envious of the relationship we're able to have as co-parents and. It's pretty simple, you know, it's not about me and it's not about her. It's about the kids, you know? I'm sure there may be some things that, that we talk about that are a little rougher, but the kids don't need to be involved.

They just need a seamless transition from, you know, mom to dad, and we just take care of what we need to for the kids and keep them, you know, safe and fulfilled in everything that they need. That's the bottom line. You know, it's not about the adults, it's now about the kids. So whatever we need to do to make them a priority is, is always first.

[00:21:57] Juliet: And how do you feel like you were able to put aside your own you know, your defensiveness we all fill that as adults. What's helped you with that transition in parenting?

[00:22:08] Diego: I think open communication. You know, open communication and knowing that we will, we'll listen to each other concerns and address those concerns as they come up rather than holding them in, you know, something that would work really well in a marriage.

I would, you would suggest the same thing, I'm sure. Oh, absolutely. You know, but, so kind of the same thing is just open communication. Listen to concerns and listen to concerns without the sword and shield. You know, just just because something is being said, it doesn't mean it's an attack at you.

You know, it's just how somebody is feeling and we just need to listen. And once they're done, you know, we can formulate a response that won't be taken as an attack and yeah, just deliver it. Well, and of course we expect the same from the other person to just sit and listen and wait for it to end and then formulate a response rather than being reactive, you know, in.

In in families, I think it's really important that we raise our kids in non-reactive homes. I'm not sure which book I read this in, but they mentioned how kids that grow up in reactive homes they end up and as they live in reactive homes, they often try to help the adults cope with their emotions, you know, as small children.

And in doing so later on in life when they're adults and people mistreat them they see that as an opportunity to try to fix somebody, rather than looking at that as a red flag and going like, I don't want anything to do with that relationship. They, instead of gravitate towards that relationship because it feels familiar.

You know, and so reactor homes. Not a good thing. Let's learn to communicate as partners. And also as a single dad I've worked really hard on learning to communicate with 'em appropriately so that I don't create a reactive home with my kids. And traumatize them in the process even further.

So yeah, communication is huge. I know we all heard it before we even got married, you know, and in high school, but I just can't emphasize it enough. So,

[00:24:03] Brent: Yeah. One thing that I think that's really hard for firefighters is we, our job is reactive, right? The tones go off. We have this 9 1 1 call.

It's our job to react and solve the problem, get there, right? And so I think we kind of have that mindset for 48 hours. Yeah, for sure. How do you turn that off and because, and I think, you know, I know I'm guilty of it, but when you get home and then that. You know, a couple orange juice gets spilled or you know, the fighting starts, whatever.

It's go time, it's react time. Yeah. My job is to fix this. That's the tones going off that same, you know, fight or flight almost, you know, and when it's really not appropriate. Right. This isn't a 9 1 1 call. This isn't life or death. And, but man, how do you separate those or how do you leave that at the doorstep when you get home and kind of shift it?

And I'd imagine it's probably similar for. You know, any parent that's working, they have kind of their work mindset. I think it's almost a little bit exaggerated for firefighters cuz it's 48 hours at a time. You eat live, sleep in this mindset and then it's a little different when you get home.

[00:25:09] Diego: But honestly, I think it comes down to self care and taking care of yourself.

Because, I mean, think about it, we're at the station and the tones go off and you're exhausted, you're tired. You've had a rough day for whatever reason, and you haven't taken time to take care of yourself, it's gonna be a crappy response from you. Like, ugh, not again. Right? Unless it's a fire, then we're all excited.

But for everything else, we're gonna be oh, what a drag. Like again, really where I, if we're taking care of ourselves and we have just kind of a more positive attitude and outlook, you know, we may be still not super excited to go on that. Pharmacist or whatever, you know, but we'll react, but we'll do it correctly, you know, in the right mindset.

And that's kinda the same thing at home. If I go home and I'm just exhausted, I haven't taken care of myself or, process the things that I need to process. When those things do happen, the owner juices get spilled or big brother hits little brother or vice versa, which happens more often. I'm gonna be pretty reactive.

You know, but if I take care of myself, I can take a moment, take a deep breath, and formulate an appropriate reaction to that, you know, rather than a negative one. Sure.

[00:26:19] Juliet: Developing mindfulness skills, which is what's gonna help you with that regulation of your emotions, can be practiced even during that 48 hour shift and probably should be right.

We can't expect ourselves to be totally. Different people when we get home. So, you know, having that, even just that simple check-in of what is going on in my body. Yes, I'm noticing my rapid heart rate. I'm noticing that I'm I am responding to this. To this emergency in this way, and still taking that time to be aware of what's happening to your body when you are on those high stressful situations.

Even when you're at the station and waiting for that, there's that kind of, that anticipation that you're gonna be on call at any minute will still be helpful for you. Then when you get home to, you know, to do what Diego's talking about for your self-care of being aware of what's going on, I am actually automatically responding in that.

That intensity that I fell at the station a few hours ago, but this is a different situation. I can walk myself through this, that I am at home, I am safe. You're gonna, you can kind of ground yourself back. So, you know, I think that those mindfulness skills can be practiced throughout both areas of your lives.

Yeah,

[00:27:28] Brent: I love that cuz it's not necessarily a hundred percent 180 degree turnaround, it's just being aware. Right? Yeah. And kind of taking some. Being intentional with what you're gonna do next, be aware of how you're feeling. But then be intentional about the next step and don't let those, you know, fight or flight response dictate the next action you're about to take.

Earlier we were talking about communication and what role would you say, or how appropriate is it to communicate with your kids about the job? Right. And I'll give you an example and I'll just kind of put our parenting note on the. The lab table, and you guys can critique it all you want, but one of our kids would joke about or talk lightly about killing himself and and of course my wife's an ER nurse and then with all the calls we go on fire it would send us off every single time. And I think he got to the point where he just. Liked getting that reaction out of us, you know, and because of course his parents were like, oh man, is he really, you know, is he really just kidding? And what do we gotta do? And man it. But you know, having seen that firsthand in kids his age, you know, it was really hard on, on both me and my wife.

And eventually we just decided, you know what? We sat him down and we said, Hey, you know what me and mom do for work and you know that this is a real thing. Like when you say that, it makes us think about the real times this has happened. And I remember the look of shock on his face, but his, you know, his next thing, he was like, people do this for real.

He's like, yeah, people do that for real. And so when you say that, it makes us. Feel this way and we just, you know, of course we love you and we just want to help you, but this probably isn't something you should joke about ever again. You know? I don't know. And so, and so we've tried to find a balance, cause obviously we don't want to like dump all the trauma on them, but trying to make them aware of what we do for a living so that they.

At least don't put the blame on themselves. Like, oh man, dad's been up all night, or Mom's been up all night at work. They're probably tired. It's not my fault. You know, but where if we don't communicate about how our job makes us feel sometimes, then maybe they put all the blame on themselves. That was our plan.

I don't know if that was appropriate. But it seems like there's gotta be a level of communication about what we do without scaring them or making them feel the burden of what we do either. I don't know. Yeah.

[00:29:45] Juliet: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, sometimes we. And you can tell me if that, if you feel like that's what you've done is you, it's common for first responders to try to keep it all inside, to not share the, maybe the scary things that they're exposed to.

And it's really important families are still picking up on it. Right? A first responder, responder that develops ptsd. It is very common for family members, children, and I shouldn't say common, but it is possible for spouses and children to have secondary P T S D. Not having experienced the trauma, but simply because we, like we were talking about, we develop our regulation skills from our parents.

So they're coming home with these feelings. So I think you're hitting on the head, Brent, that it's hard to know what you know exactly. But we keep the conversation open with our children. We keep, We don't shield them from everything. We can talk about it. We invite them to the station.

We let them see all the safety measures that go on of how to keep you safe. You know, we address that they might be having anxiety about your job. We start to have it be an open conversation and age appropriate. And I think that changes. But

[00:30:49] Diego: what are your thoughts? Yeah, I think it's, it is very important to communicate with them about what we do, you know, keeping some of the details to.

Maybe age appropriate, and I don't know how we gauge that. Yeah. You know, I think that's probably a personal preference is important. And I'm not sure how I would've handled what you guys handled. But you know, if it felt like the right thing and it worked, and then great, you know, but so when my oldest boy he was in therapy for a little while, about a year ago or so we learned that he had a lot of anxiety and you know, as we kind of tried to figure out what the anxiety was about one of the exercises was they had him do, like a list of 10 fears, right?

With the. It's the worst one at the very top. And that one was dad getting hurt at work on not coming home. And I never would've thought that. Had no idea. Yeah. I never would've thought that. Yeah. You know, I thought that that he really looked up to, and he still does. You know, I thought that he just really looked up to it and that and that's where it ended.

But he had this legit fear that something was going to happen to me, so, It was great for me to know that cuz I could reassure and let him know and show him some of the safety measures and the people that I work with and that they keep me safe and that I will always do everything possible, you know, to make sure I can come home.

So yeah, I think communicating with them about what we do, how we do it, and how careful we all are and how we are a family and will be there for each other is very important And you know, to go along with regulation and co-regulation with our kids. We have to teach them about emotions.

You know, I feel like my generation we didn't get that. And so we're having to learn how to regulate, how to recognize emotions as adults. And it's hard, you know, it's hard learning about them, expressing them and recognizing them. And so I think we're, we'd be doing them a huge service, you know, throughout their whole lives if we teach them about emotions, feelings now.

And, you know, along with that, teaching them that as parents, not invincible. And we are humans. And when we have those moments, that may ring a little bit of shame, those parenting moments that, you know, maybe we send 'em into a timeout and we sit back and think, we're like, you know, that was an overreaction, that was not great. And now they're in their rumor, wherever, feeling like they're a failure. We need to be comfortable enough to go and approach them and say, I overreacted. You know, and I'm sorry. I, it shouldn't have happened. I'm not perfect. And that's okay. You know, so em emotions and feelings are huge.

And I think that's something that we can work on to make our lives and their lives in the future so much better. I don't know what you

[00:33:43] Juliet: Yeah, I absolutely agree. Yeah. They, it's so huge. And Brent, one thing I think you did great in your example of that was you were. You were listening to what was being said.

You weren't just ignoring these, the, you know, these comments, but you were also noticing what it was doing to you and your wife. Right? So I think that's what we learned from it. We don't know exactly what was the right response, like we say with our children. But you were you were noticing what was, you know, what was happening.

You were noticing what was happening in yourself, and then that's how you kind of address those emotions. Sounds like you did just what you know, Diego was talking about, you were, this brings up emotions to me because, have you thought of it this way? So I'm not

[00:34:20] Brent: total failure. Good job after all. And I just kinda wanna, and maybe as we wrap up here you know, Diego story reminded me of another story I'd heard from a business partner that I once had.

And he, I just remember, I can't remember how the conversation started, but he said one of his most powerful memories as a child was when his dad came and apologized to him. And he just, he said he, I probably didn't appreciate it as much in that moment as much as later when I look back on that, and here's this grown man who's working his guts out for our family, took the time to apologize to my 10 year old self because he overreacted.

And he said, that stuck with me for. Ever, you know? And since he told me that, I was like, I could do way better at that. You know? And it's okay to apologize and to admit to our kids that maybe we don't have it all figured out and that we do make mistakes, but we're willing to see those.

And so I've tried to do that and I, you know, cause we've talked about a lot of things and there's, I think there's lots of Room for people to make up all the shame and guilt they want, you know? But if think, if you recognize. The mindset of a relationship and part of a relationship is admitting fault and everybody can move on. Right. And so to take the time to apologize to a six year old or 10 year old or you know, can go probably a lot further than we think. And it seems like, man, they bounce back right back. You know what may take an adult weeks to forgive. Kids are ready right then to just go right back to that healthy relationship status.

And that's probably something we could take away as adults is probably do that a little better. But just as we wrap up here, is there any kind of final thoughts you guys have as far as, you know, if there was one thing every firefighter could know or that we should walk away with feeling as a parent or something to think about as a parent, what would you tell '

[00:36:04] Diego: em?

I think that there's, well, I know that there's this kind of stigma in the firefighter world that, you know, we're big and strong and we have no weaknesses. And if we show weakness we lose value. And I think we need to change that. We need to change that. And. Make it the norm that we're not strong and, you know, invincible that we are weak at times vulnerable and that we have feelings and emotions and that's okay.

You know, it's, we need to practice that a lot more. And we need to be open with friends, family And especially our kids. So I would say just recognize your feelings and your emotions no matter where you're at, whether you're at home or at work. And and validate them, you know, why am I feeling this way?

And know that it's okay that you're not gonna lose value because you have a feeling like it's gonna be fine, and let's just be open and talk about it. It's okay, you know, I. I have a lot of feelings I've learned, so, so do you. Yeah, I'm sure. Probably. I don't know. So that's what I would say that's something that we.

Ignore. Try to push, yeah. Deep down so we can

[00:37:27] Brent: stay strong of our favorite comedians. I think I've quoted this on here before, but man, it makes so much sense every time, you know, it comes back up. But Bill Burr says, yeah, you just take that feeling, you bottle it up, put it on your shelf and wonder. Who in my life I love is gonna pay for this later, you know?

Of course he says it in a funny way, but man, it's so true, right? Like you keep those feelings to yourself and you're just stacking up the ammo that one day is gonna be unleashed on someone you love. It's not gonna be some stranger, whatever it's gonna be. Those closest to you is gonna get the brunt of that jar exploding.

Yep. You'll

[00:37:59] Diego: end up bleeding on somebody you love. That did nothing to do. Yeah. Yeah. That didn't preserve

[00:38:02] Brent: it. But yeah, so I think that's great. A wonderful tip, cuz I, I think you're right and it's. Unfortunately, you're not gonna change overnight, but the time is now. Just start that, that shift of thinking, right?

That it's okay to not be the Superman and to have no feelings at all, and only

[00:38:19] Diego: keep those yourselves. Yeah. And you know, and if we're, if we wanna stay closed up and tied up to your department family, your family, like. It's okay, you can start small. You know, we have clinicians that we can see privately.

Nobody has to know. And there's a great way that we have to be able to bill for that anonymously. So you can tell your friends and family that you're going to a bar or something if you want to look manly, you know, and go talk to a clinician about whatever it is that's going on shop for barbed wire.

Yeah. Something tough, whatever you're gonna do. So, and, you know, begin to normalize that a little bit and support each other as we do that. But I honestly, I'm super grateful for therapists and for, the changes that I've been able to make and the things that I've recognized in my life thanks to you know, therapy. So, yeah, a huge shout out to a therapist and to therapy itself. So, yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:08] Juliet: I hope that's what what you're, you know, all of. Every, anyone that's listening to this is hearing or filling right now, is that is that we are all people first, right? And if there's expectations of something, you know, something, go ahead and advocate for yourself and get the support you need.

And I hope that you can feel like a that there's no shame in that, that this is very normal. That we all that we all need each other. And sometimes that therapeutic relationship is gonna be helpful. Encourage your friends to, you know, to get the support they need, encourage your family to get the support they need and and encourage yourself.

To also get the support you need.

[00:39:46] Diego: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:47] Brent: That's awesome. And I'm glad you brought that up. Cause I know like our fire department peer support team has put in a ton of work to get the funds available and just as you said, Diego, the privacy available, I. That anybody, you, this can be as absolutely private as you want it to be, to get on our website.

You find a clinician, you can contact them directly. You don't have to go through the fire department at all. All the clinicians on the website have all the correct information they need to bill without anybody knowing. And and that goes for firefighters, spouses, families, and retirees.

So it's a pretty big deal. And I think that's something we're pretty proud of as a peer support team to have that. Big piece available for those. And the privacy, like I said, is as much as you want. But also, you know, as peer support team members, Diego and I and the others on the team are also theirs as help too.

Like if you want to not sure what a clinician visit looks like, you wanna talk to somebody who's done it first, you know, then that's exactly what we're here for. Or if you maybe don't feel like your problem is big enough for a clinician or whatever, you know, then the peer team certainly doesn't have all the answers.

But is there to help point me in the right direction and. Nothing else, just be listening here. So

[00:40:54] Diego: yeah, for

[00:40:55] Brent: sure. Awesome. Okay, well thanks again guys, for being here. Appreciate your time and I know this goes a long way for guys that are trying to get all this parenting stuff figured out, so appreciate it and we'll see you on the next one.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you.